Episode 165 – The Difference Between Sociopaths, Psychopaths, and Narcissists! Featuring Dr. James Fallon’s Interview “Life as a Nonviolent Psychopath”

Ep165 – The Difference Between Sociopaths, Psychopaths, and Narcissists! Featuring Dr. James Fallon’s Interview “Life as a Nonviolent Psychopath”

One of the requests that I receive the most is to do an episode on psychopaths vs. sociopaths or narcissists. In this episode, I cover all three, including a fascinating article in The Atlantic, “Life as a Nonviolent Psychopath” https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/01/life-as-a-nonviolent-psychopath/282271/ where interviewer Judith Ohikuare talks to American neuroscientist Dr. James Fallon. Dr. Fallon is a professor of psychiatry and human behavior and emeritus professor of anatomy and neurobiology at the University of California, Irvine School of Medicine.

Dr. Fallon found an amazing discovery when he looked at functional brain scans of a control group for Alzheimer’s research alongside scans of violent murderers. This discovery led him to write the book “The Psychopath Inside: A Neuroscientist’s Personal Journey into the Dark Side of the Brain.” https://amzn.to/33fozhN

I also reference Dr. Traci Stein’s article from Psychology Today “Narcissist or Sociopath? Similarities, Differences and Signs”     https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-integrationist/201608/narcissist-or-sociopath-similarities-differences-and-signs as well as an article that briefly describes the differences between a sociopath and a psychopath https://www.healthyplace.com/personality-disorders/psychopath/psychopath-vs-sociopath-what-s-the-difference

You can pre-order Tony’s new book: He’s a Porn Addict, Now What? An Expert and a Former Addict Answer Your Questions here https://msipress.com/product/hes-a-porn-addict-now-what-an-expert-and-a-former-addict-answer-your-questions/ And you can find out more about Tony’s pornography recovery program The Path Back by visiting http://pathbackrecovery.com And visit http://tonyoverbay.com and sign up to receive updates on upcoming programs, and podcasts.

The Virtual Couch is sponsored by http://Betterhelp.com/virtualcouch Betterhelp.com is the world’s leading provider of online therapy. Their mission is to make professional counseling accessible, affordable, and convenient, so anyone who struggles with life’s challenges can get help, anytime, anywhere. Head to http://betterhelp.com/virtualcouch for 10% off your first month of services.

The following is the machine-generated transcript of the episode courtesy of Audio Burst:

The Difference Between Sociopaths, Psychopaths, and Narcissists! Featuring Dr. James Fallon’s Interview “Life as a Nonviolent Psychopath”

00:00:00 – 00:05:00 

Coming up on today’s episode of the virtual couch. Don’t let the title fool you sociopaths. Psychopaths narcissist. Oh My. We’re going to talk about these different. Different Cluster B personality disorders but in particular. We’re going to focus on an interview in the Atlantic featuring Dr James Fallon in the interviews title. Life is a non violent psychopath which is going to shed a lot of light on. Just even the idea of what makes a psychopath. Nature versus nurture. And we’re going to dig a little a deeper into the concept of personality disorders these cluster B personality disorders that tend to have a flair for the dramatic. And I think that this will bring a lot of of awareness of somebody that feels like they might be in a relationship with somebody who might struggle with a personality disorder if they feel like somebody in their family my struggle with a personality disorder but some of the true gold here is in this interview with Doctor James Fallon where he talks about kind of come into an awareness that his behavior was not what he wanted it to be especially especially with those that he cared for so I feel like there’s just a lot that you can learn today if you’ve ever wondered about any of these or feel like you’re dealing with any of these types of personalities in your life so that and plenty more coming up on the virtual couch. Hey before we get started today I do want to talk about my friends better. HEALTH DOT COM. Now I typically it read emails that I received from listeners and those emails are fantastic. I think my point wanted people to recognize that they are getting help through better health dot Com specifically better help dot com slash virtual couch. But I was listening to better help DOT COM ads on a lot of different podcast. A lot of my favorite podcasts and I was listening to one of the The reeds of the ad and it was wonderful. It was fantastic. The data was there. But you know it kind of dawned on me therapist This is I believe everybody could use a little bit therapy in their life truly to be able to process difficult things to be able to go to work through things that they’ve always been stuck on things that have just kicked around in their head. They’re free to talk about or things that even aware of that are holding them back from living an incredible life and I know part of that struggle can be finding therapists. It can and if there aren’t a lot of therapists in your area and let’s be honest. It can be for a lot of people. There’s still a very negative stigma around therapy and it can be the process of having to go to therapists worrying about who I will see who I in the parking lot or in the waiting room or the receptionist gives me the stink eye. Whatever it is I understand? So that’s where a better help dot com comes in so if you go to better help dot com slash virtual couch. You can set an account there and they have a very broad range of expertise. I’ve looked through this. They we have people that are amazing therapists in with treating. OCD treating anxiety. Depression anxiety settings I e but lots of people that can treat anxiety there but they have different modalities my favorite one acceptance and commitment therapy. They have Acceptance and commitment therapy therapist cognitive behavioral therapists behavioral. They have so many options there. But the key is when you go when you sign up when you go to better health dot com slash virtual couch. You do fill out some assessment paperwork and they do a very very phenomenal ajab matching you with a therapist that is going to most likely click. But here’s the cool part. If if the therapist if you don’t click with therapist they make it very painless endless to even change therapists. So there’s a broad range of expertise in their counselor network which might not be available in your local local area. It’s available for clients worldwide. You can log into your account count anytime you can send a message to your therapist. And they won’t get the you’ll get a timely response. Plus you can get a weekly video or phone sessions. So you don’t necessarily have to come sit in uncomfortable waiting room and they you can start communicating often in less than twenty four hours. I’ll be super honest. I I have a very blessed Practice I I get. Referrals was literally daily from the podcast from people that have worked with before and it honestly it breaks my heart that sometimes I feel like I can’t even I don’t have enough time to even get back to the people and I feel so bad about you bet. And that’s where I honestly love the fact that you can start communicating with somebody in twenty four to forty eight hours if you have tried to find a therapist. Sometimes you’ll know that you might not hear back from them and you’re you’re ready you you want help. So they’re they’re committed to facilitating Greek therapeutic matches and it’s easy. It’s free to change counselors if you needed. It’s more affordable. I’ll be honest in traditional off. Line counseling and financial aid. So they really want you start learning happier life today and I’m going to be honest I do too so please go to better help dot com slash virtual couch. If you do that you will receive ten percent off your first month’s service and now I can’t lie you go to better health dot com slash virtual couch and you go through there then you know they sure there. There’s going to be a little something that can help me with the cost of the podcast so I would be grateful if you went through better. Health dot com slash flesh virtual couch.

00:05:01 – 00:10:05 

All right go do it today. It’s time to start getting help. Better help dot com slash virtual catch Everybody thank you for tuning the episode. One six five hundred hundred sixty five of the virtual couch. I’m Tony Romo. licensed marriage. Family Therapist Certified Lab. Coach writer. Speaker has been father of four ultra marathon runner and creator of the path back and online pornography recovery program that has helped people reclaim their lives from the harmful effects of pornography. If you or anybody that you know is struggling to pornography behind them once and for all and trust me it can. We’ll be done in a string based hold a shame. Become the person you always knew you could be way then please head over to path back recovery dot com and there you can download a short e book that describes five common mistakes that people make trying to get rid of pornography. When some for all again that is path back recovery DOT COM and? I’ll do this part very quickly. Please visit virtual couch on instagram. There’s weekly question and answers. There’s little Instagram TV. You can also follow virtual couch on facebook or Tony. overby licensed marriage and family therapist on facebook as well and if you have enjoyed any of the virtual couch podcast I guess material. Please do me a favor in review subscribe share. Whatever you WANNA do? BET is the currency of podcast these days and that would help me out a great deal. Just get the podcast in front of more people and go Tony. overpay DOT COM. I’m Sharon a lot more information on upcoming programs. PODCAST and more release on my book. I think it’s coming out in just a few weeks co-authored a book that is really getting some great pre-release Buzz. The book is called. He’s porn addict now. What an expert and a former addict answer your questions and and I am playing the role the expert and former virtual couch guests josh as well on the podcast again? Probably in a few weeks to get out and get moving a little bit before we do some Guest together but he will be on here already authored. A best selling book called the addiction that nobody will talk about and he writes as the addict. So I will have a link in the show notes or you can go and pre-order the book. But let’s get to today’s topic so one of the most common emails that I get and no joke is things about questions is about psychopath sociopath narcissism if you’ve been listening to the virtual couch for awhile you know that I do quite a bit in the world of Narcissism. Sometimes I don’t think that Share enough what What that is why? Why do that and part of that is because a big part of my practice is helping people who find themselves in relationships with people people who they believe may struggle with narcissistic personality disorder or NPD? And so I ended up doing a lot of work around personality disorders. And so you can go back. And you can find some episodes that I’ve done on narcissism on gas lighting. You’re on Just personality disorders in general and so the more that you put data or information out out there on things like personality disorders narcissism the more questions you get about that the more clients you see around that and I’ve actually had the opportunity to testify in court cases around impersonality disorders narcissism and again a big part of my practice. And I’ll be honest I I it sounds weird to say I enjoy working with people That maybe are in relationships. We’re trying to get out of relationships with people with personality disorders. But I mean that is a big part of my practice. I feel like there are definitely some things that you can do. That will kind of help. Keep you sane and help you really know what to do next if you find yourself in one of those relationships and I may or may not have an upcoming project pretty big project. That will also talk talk about that that I can’t wait to kind of give more information on some more of that to follow. But so I get a lot of emails about the PODCASTS. In general which I am just so grateful eight four. I never anticipated getting the feedback that I would for the virtual couch but a lot of them are um how. Can you tell if someone is a sociopath or psychopath. Or what’s the difference between socio apathy. An in psychopathy or narcissism and socio apathy or sociopaths narcissists all of those types of things so I’ve been meaning to do an episode like this for a long time but I didn’t want it to just sound very dry and clinical so. I thought what I would do. Is I want to start with an article that I stumbled upon years ago. Actually before I feel like I ran up on Ran into this before I really started focusing more in the world the personality disorders and this was an article in the Atlantic. It said the Atlantic Dot Com and And of course I will put the link to this article in my show notes and and I also want to be very very clear that I am going to be reading. Almost word by word This article because it’s an interview you can. It’s called life as a non violent psychopath and it’s something that really put me kind of one of these things that put me on the path of working with people with personality disorders.

00:10:05 – 00:15:11

’cause I found this article just fascinating and it’s an article by neuroscientist named James Fallon in James Fallon is actually going on to write a book that it’s called the psychopath inside a neuroscientist personal journey into the dark side of the brain and I ended up grabbing the book. And also the audio book. And I’ve listened to at a time or two. Actually I think I’ve read the book twice and and listen to the audio book Maybe one and a half times and recommended it to some people because I run into people from time to time. Who who they literally will say that I’m a psychopath and And I feel like this is a nice way to kind of give an introduction on what psychopathy looks like so I want to start by going over this article and then I’ve got another article that I’ll get to a little bit later which is with from a doctor Stein. And that talks about a difference between sociopaths paths and narcissist and we’ll kind of go into the differences there so this is a pretty interesting story and And again I the reason I want to be clear on that. I’m reading this article as I know. So you can go read the article to and but Big Part of what podcast do. is they kind of fillion on some information when you’re whether you’re at the gym or whether you’re in the car on a walk that sort of thing so I wanNA I want to provide that information because I think it gives a nice background on what psycho psycho pathology looks like a psychopathy But especially in this. Life is a non violent psychopath. I feel like this neuroscientist James Fallon really kind of lays out. Maybe the whole nature nurture debate. Or why why. How can someone be a like? He says a non violent psychopath so So let’s kind of dig in here. So it says neuroscientist James Fallon discovered through his work that he has the brain of a psychopath path and subsequently learned a lot about the role of genes in personality and how his brain affects his life. And I would encourage you if you are if you kind of wonder or anything about even narcissism or or Kenny nurses this be cured or can you bring awareness to in our system. I think there’s a pretty interesting part that we’re going to get to and probably I would guess it’s about ten fifteen minutes that talks about his awareness. Dr Fallon’s awareness around once. He recognized that he had the brain of a psychopath. Popat and what he’s done with that especially with regard to family and I think that that is where when I talk about Sometimes I talk about working with what. I’ll call a Unicorn which is a narcissist assists to you. Know doesn’t believe that anything is wrong with them whatsoever but if they are about the lose perhaps family job career that sort of thing. That’s when I run into some people who’ve kind of said okay fine you know maybe maybe I am our sister but if so what do I do with it anyway. You know it’s like you get them in. They’re willing to listen or look at what their behavior may be doing or causing to close personal relationships especially members of the family. Doctor Fallon talks very very directly toward that here in a little bit. So in two thousand and five James Fallon life started to resemble the plot to be well honed. Joker big screen thriller. so He’s a neuroscientist. He’s working in his lab one day. Anything said he’s stumbled hold on a big mistake so he’s researching Alzheimer’s and he’s using his healthy family members brain scans of a control group so he had asked Several members members of his family including myself to these functional memories and which are brain scans and he’s going to put those in a pile and then he also was simultaneous reviewing the functional imerys of murderous psychopaths for a side project? Already pretty wildly here. You’ve got a neuroscientist Dr Fallon who can do everything from looking at Researching Searching Alzheimer’s in the brain and also has the side project about murderers psychopaths so it appears though that one of the killers scans has been shuffled into the wrong batch so he he says the scans are anonymously labeled so the researcher has technician break the code to identify the individual in his family in place his or her skin in its proper place place and in the book the psychopath inside a neuroscientist personal journey into the dark side of the brain. If I remember correctly this was a pretty interesting part. Where at the I believe it talked talked about him wondering which? I’m sure you can imagine who in my family is a psychopath right. Then he knows. Oh my gosh. When this when this researcher technician breaks the code? He we can’t wait to tell aunt phyllis or uncle Ron. Whoever is going to be that they are? Maybe he’s not gonNa tell him when he finds out that they have the brain of a psychopath so when he sees the results however vallon immediately orders the technician to double check the code but no mistake is made the brain skin that mirrors those of psychopaths belongs to Dr Felon so so after discovering that he had the brain of a psychopath val delved into his family tree and he spoke with experts and colleagues and relatives and friends to see if his behavior matched up with the imaging imaging in front of him so he not only learned that few people were surprised that the outcome I can only imagine what that was like but that the boundary separating him from dangerous criminals was less determined terminate than he had presumed so again he wrote about his research and findings in the book. The psychopath inside a neuroscientist personal journey in the dark side of the brain and oh I should retain the Atlantic article and so the the interviewer then says that he spoke about the idea of nature versus nurture and what if anything can be done for people whose biology you might betray their behavior.

00:15:12 – 00:20:06

And the interviewer in this article is a woman named Judith. And I am one hundred percent going to butcher this. I’m sure Owned Oh hit car away. So I don’t know her But it’s an amazing interview. And so from this point forward how referred the interviewers Judith even though we are not on a first first name basis although Juda if you hear this interview it will be wonderful to talk to you. And perhaps we would hit it off well and we could be on a first name basis but so judith said that we spoke about the idea of nature versus nurture and in what if anything can be done with people whose biology might betray their behavior. I love that concept of WHO’s biology might betray their behavior so she says one of the first things that you talk about in your book is the often unrealistic or ridiculous ways that psychopaths are portrayed in film and television. Why did you decide to share your story and risk being lumped in with all of that that was a very awkward reading of the question by me but But I appreciate her question Dr Fallon did not necessarily neat. Well not necessarily did not have to go public with this kind of research because the research is no doubt. Tell us saying what saying. Hey this guy is a psychopath. These admitting it is brain scan shows that so he says I’m a basic neuroscientist stem cells growth factors imaging genetics. That sort of thing when I found out about my skin I kind of let it go. After I saw the rest of my families were quite normal. He said I was worrying about Alzheimer’s especially along with my wife side and we were concerned about our kids and grandkids. Then my lab was busy. Doing gene discovery for schizophrenia and Alzheimer’s Launching Biotech Startup for a research on adult stem cells. We won an award and I was so involved with other things. I didn’t actually look at my results for a couple of years. Dr Fallon goes on to say this personal experience really had me look into a field that I was only tangentially related to and burned into my mind the importance of genes and the environment on a molecular luckier level. So and we’re going to get into this quite a bit as well. This Ju- jeans the genetics and the environment which again we’re going into both nature nurture so he said that for specific genes. Those interactions can really explain behavior. And what is hidden under my personal stories. A discussion about the effective bullying abuse and street violence on kids. So Judas willing to say used to believe that people were roughly eighty percent the result of their genetics and twenty percent the result of their environment. How did this discovery causes shift in your thinking? And so he said he went into this with the bias of scientists who believed for many years that genetics were very very dominant in. Who People are and that your genes would tell you who you were going to be? And then he said it’s not that I no longer think that biology which includes genetics is a major determining. I just never knew how profoundly early environment could affect somebody he said while I was writing this book my mother started to tell me more things about myself. She said that she had never told me of Or my father how weird I was a certain points in my youth. Even though I was a happy go lucky kind of kid and he said as I was growing up people all throughout my life that I could be some kind of gang leader mafioso don because of certain behaviors. He said some. The parents forbade their children from hanging out with me. They wonder how it turned out so well a family guy successful professional had never been to jail and all that he said that he asked everybody he knew including psychiatrists psychiatrists geneticists that have known him for a long time and knew his bad behavior. What they thought? He said that they went through very specific things that I’d done over the years and said that psychopathic ethic and I asked them why they didn’t tell me and they said we did tell you we’ve been telling you all along. He said argued that they’ve been calling me crazy and they said no no. We’ve even save your psychopathic. He’s that I found out that I happen to have a series of genetic Khalil’s are warrior jeans and I have I have heard of this These warrior jeans as before but that these warrior jeans said had to do with Serotonin and were thought to be at risk for aggression violence and low emotional and interpersonal empathy. So if you’re raised in an abusive environment that’s how those things may manifest. He said but if you’re raised in a very positive environment That can have the effect of offsetting the negative effects effects of some of the other jeans. And I think that’s where things get really interesting so now we’ve got a combination of nature in nurture. So Dr Allan said I had some geneticists and psychiatrists who didn’t know me examined me independently and look at the whole series of disorders. I’ve had throughout my life. None of them have been severe. I’ve had the mild form of things like anxiety disorder Toronto CD. But it lined up with genetics and I remember specifically from the book that his form of OCD is something called scrupulously and If I remember correctly he he was raised Catholic and he the what scrupulously is is. It’s the OCD of religious thought. And that’s another area that I’ve happened to find myself working a fair. Your amount in and that wasn’t something that I thought that would be working and when I started my practice but I work with You know Catholicism Mormonism Some of these the the faith communities that really struggle the most with this scrupulous city or ocd of religious thoughts.

00:20:07 – 00:25:01

But he went on to say but these things lined up with genetics so the scientists then set for one. You might never been born said he said. My mother had miscarried several times and there were probably worse than genetic errors. They also said that if I hadn’t been treated so well will I probably wouldn’t have made it out of being a teenager and I thought this was interesting again. Just reading off of the page. You can’t necessarily gauge emotion. But he says I probably wouldn’t have made it out of being a teenager. I would have committed suicide or gotten killed because I would have been a violent guy so again. They’re saying that If I hadn’t been treated so well. So there comes that concept of nurture nurture versus nature so the interviewer Judas set. How did you react to hearing all this? He said I love this. I said well I don’t care. And they said that proves that you have a fair dose of Psychopathy Science. Don’t scientists don’t like to be wrong in any went on to say and here’s where things get really interesting as well He. I said I’m narcissistic so I hate to be wrong when the answer is there before you you have to suck it up. Admit it and move on. He said couldn’t I started reacting with narcissism saying. Okay I bet I can beat this watch me and I’ll be better and then I realized my own narcissism was driving that response and he said if you knew me you’d probably say oh he’s a fun guy or maybe he’s is a big mouth and a blowhard narcissists but I also think you’d say all in all these interesting and smart in okay but here’s the thing said the closer to me. You are the worse it gets and I just KINDA WANNA pause here before I go further. Here’s where I think things get pretty interesting about even his awareness around his narcissism which I’m wondering if it came at a later date but but the awareness of of the narcissism. That is the beginning of what. I like to call working with the Unicorn where I will find people from time to time and it doesn’t just happen overnight night but we’re because of certain events they will say okay all right maybe it is my narcissism you know and so I think this is pretty brilliant. The where he goes from here so said even though I have a number of very good friends they all have ultimately told me over the past two years when I asked them and they were consistent even though they hadn’t talked to each other that I do things that are quite irresponsible he said it’s not like I say go get into trouble. I say jump in the water with me and The interviewer judith went on to say what’s an example of that. How do you come back from hurting somebody in that way? And he said for me me because they need these buzzes. I get dangerous situations and he wanted to tell a pretty incredible story about Several years ago when he worked at the University of Nairobi Hospital some doctors had told told him about AIDS in the region as well as deadly virus called the Marburg virus. which go on to do a little digging about the MARBURG virus? This virus supposedly was is the What’s the word I’m looking for? It’s what spurred the the movie outbreak. which was in an incredibly Scary movie about a virus. Ah that goes wild. But but he said that the he’d been told about this AIDS in this region as well as the MARBURG virus. They said a guide coming bleeding out of his nose and ears that he’d been up in this elka going in the kingdom caves and he said okay. That’s where the elephants go and he said I knew I had to visit and he said I would’ve gone along but my brother was there so I told him it was this epoch. Track where old matriarch elephants went to retrieve minerals of advocates. But he didn’t mention anything else about the MARBURG virus or or the AIDS in the region so he said that when he got there was a lot of rebel activity on the mountain so there was nobody in the park except for one guard so he said that he has brother just went in and there were all these rare animals and it was tremendous but also the guy had died from Marburg virus after being there and nobody knew exactly really how gotten it but dot Fallon said he knew his path and he followed it to see where the guy who camped that night he said we wrapped ourselves around a fire because there were lions and they’re all these other animals animals he said we were jumping around waving sticks on fire at the animals and the absolute dark. He said his brother was going crazy and he joked After put my head inside of years because I have a family and you don’t so if a lion comes and bites one of our next it’s gotta be you again. He said I was joking around but it was real danger. He said the next day we walked into these Kim caves you can see where the rocks have been knocked over by these elephants but it was also the smell of this animal dung and that’s where the guy got the Marburg virus in scientists didn’t know whether it was the dengue or the bats so said a bit later his brother other read an article in the New Yorker About Marburg which inspired the movie outbreak. And he asked him if he knew about it. He s Dr Fallon. Did you know about the Marburg virus there and he said Yeah. It wasn’t it exciting. Nobody gets to do this trip. And he called me names and he said it not exciting enough we could have gotten Marburg. We could have gotten killed. Every two seconds and Dr Fallon went on to say all. My brothers have a lot of this cheese KOMO and Burrito. He said you’ve got to be a tough guy in our family but deep inside he said. I don’t think that my brother fundamentally trust me after that. And why should he right to me. It was nothing so after all this research. Search Dr Fallon said I started to think of all the experiences and opportunities something good Out of being kind of a jerk my entire life so he said instead of trying to fundamentally change just because it’s very difficult to change anything he said I wanted to use. What could be considered faults liked his narcissism to an advantage to do something good? Stop the Stop The podcast right there.

00:25:01 – 00:30:09

I mean that’s the thing that I I just wish you know when this world of narcissism where nurse sister looking through as my guest Christine Hammond said long ago. These fused on Yellow Lens. Glasses where they truly don’t think that they’re doing anything wrong. which that’s one of these key components of narcissism is? It’s they’re doing nothing wrong with their version of EGO or or of self so it’s it’s this is huge to see him. Say I wanted to do something I wanted to use. What could be considered faults? Narcissism to an advantage to do something good so so the interviewer judith from the Atlantic said what is that involved. And here’s where things are just pretty incredible. As far as we’re heading toward this world of the Unicorn. He said I started with simple things. How interact with my wife? My sister my mother even though they’ve always been close to me I don’t treat them all that well and again the awareness doctor Allan has here but it W- it came through a tremendous amount of time work this sort of thing but he said even though they’re close to me I don’t treat them that well he said I treat strangers pretty pretty well really well and people tend to like me when they meet me but I treat my family the same way like they’re just somebody at a bar he said. Treat them well but I don’t treat them in a special way and he said that’s ask the big problem. Dr Fallon said I asked them this. It’s not something that a person will tell you spontaneously but they said I give you everything I give you all this love and you really don’t give it back and And I know if anyone’s been in a relationship with a narcissist for example. They know that they do. They do often feel like they are giving constantly but they don’t get anything back but then say hey. I’m not getting anything back oftentimes now. They’ve opened themselves up to the concept of gas lighting where the nurses will tell them. We don’t give me anything either in in which can kind of start to enter this pretty negative cycle so they so again his Ailey said I give you everything I give you all this love and you really don’t give it back. They all said it any in that bothered me. He said so. I wanted to see if I could change. I don’t believe it but I’m GonNa try pretty pretty incredible rain in order to do that. Dr Fallon said that every time I started to do something I had to think about it and look at it and go no. Don’t do the selfish thing or the self-serving thing step by step. That’s what I’ve been doing for about a year and behalf and they all like it their basic responses. We know you don’t really mean it but we still like it and this paragraph alone is pretty key and I know I joke oftentimes about my own dustings of narcissism. But I mean. I’m I’m pretty honest about it where there’s times right I have had to think. Wow I have found myself kind of turned into story back to me or you. You know I have found myself. Maybe not listening in pathetically as I could not talking more about my practice. But that’s why I really identified with him talking about even things in his family so so I feel like that awareness starts internally that awareness for whether it’s the psychopath sociopath the narcissists that you know the person’s just kind of selfish or maybe for focused focused more on their own ego that starts with this awareness of thinking. Wow Okay I was already thinking of. What’s next I wasn’t listening to the person intently so just loved that he said again that’s something that That Yo step-by-step. He’s doing this for a year and a half that where he has to think things through and say no. Don’t do the selfish thing of the self-serving thing. He said that I told them. You gotta be kidding me. You’ll accept this. He said it’s phony and they said No. No No. It’s okay if you treat people better. It means you care enough to try again. That’s that’s mind blowing. Wish that every nurses in the world even here just that alone where their family really appreciates because if they if they treat people better and means they care enough to try Dr Fallon said it blew him away then and he said it’s still blows me away now but treating everybody everybody. The same isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Is it again. This is the interview or Judah she said it’s Is it just that the people close to you want more from you and Dr Allan said yes. They absolutely expected demand more. It’s kind of cruelty a kind of abuse. Because you’re not giving them that love. He said my wife to this day. Says it’s hard to be with me a parties because I’ve got all these people around me and a lever or other people in the cold. She’s not selfish She’s not a selfish person. But I can see now how it can really work on somebody. This is an example. oftentimes me jumping in here but there are certain traits see in in things like narcissistic personality disorder and man again. I won’t do the dramatic while I’m doing it right now. Is going to say if I had a dollar for every one of these stories where I will hear about someone who may be struggling with narcissistic personality disorder leaving their partner Eh parties at an events that you name it. I mean and I’ve worked with some pretty incredible Incredibly high profile and successful narcissist. So these can be some pretty in grand events. Gallus we might even say award show you name it and These are people that do leave their partner in the lurch or the leave them behind and that’s something that can really affect a partner Affect the partner. Who is being left behind? Doctor said I gave a talk. Two years ago in India the Mumbai confess on personality disorders psychopathy and he said that we also had a historian from Oxford talk about violence against women in terms of the brain and social development.

00:30:09 – 00:35:03

After it was over he said a woman came up to me and asked if we could talk she was a psychiatrist but also a science writer and she said You said that you live in a flat emotional world that is that you treat everybody the same and she said that’s Buddhist and he said. I don’t know anything about Buddhism but she continued on and said it’s too bad that the people close to you or so disappointed in being close to you any learn Buddhist would think that was great and he said. I really don’t know what to do with that so I think that he’s you know this is the part where he’s kind of saying that you know he’s being told that. Hey this is okay. This is like this Buddhist state that you’ve gotten to in and says me weighing in personally where I feel like it. You know I work with a lot of people that try to get to this. Mindfulness Place this this kind of Zinn almost like Buddhist place of acceptance where they aren’t as reactionary. So I feel like what This woman was saying that. Hey you you happen to be doing something it could be labeled as Buddhists and so I don’t you Kinda hang your hat on that and Dr Fallon saying you know I. I don’t know what to do with that and I think it’s because this isn’t something that he necessarily has worked worked for doesn’t seem or feel genuine to him. Sometimes he said the truth is not just that it hurts but just that it’s so disappointing. He said you want to believe in romance. And have romance in your your life even the most hardcore and I think this is pretty interesting. He said even the most hardcore cold intellectual wants through romantic notion it kind of makes life worth living but with these kinds kinds of things. You really start thinking about what a machine it means that we are what it means that some of us don’t need those feelings while some of us need them so much he said it destroys the romantic fabric of society in a way and again jumping in As a therapist here this is the part where I can appreciate what he said earlier. What his family said? But you trying shows us that you care and so a lot of times if I jump back into my couple’s therapist world of This emotionally focused their eft. That I love is that we really do. Try to dig down to these truths because if someone doesn’t know here comes to Cliche if somebody doesn’t know what they don’t know if they don’t even know what a true connection or Emotional attachment feels like they’ve never seen a modeled and they truly don’t know what it feels like the way to start if we’re ever going to have that emotional connection with somebody it’s important. The person has the awareness to say. I I guess I don’t really know I don’t understand what you’re asking for partner or what you’re saying therapist. I I really feel like sure. I can appreciate what he’s saying. Is that what it means. Is that some of us. Don’t need those feelings while some of us need them so much he said it destroys the romantic fabric of society in a way but but marriage therapists Here record this podcast sees that the The lack of awareness of what we’re dealing with is what really can destroy that romantic fabric of society society and that when people do have the awareness of okay. Maybe I don’t understand what this emotional attachment or connection looks like feels like should be like that. That’s where we can start start to grow toward that when the person can feel like they can open up and say. I don’t even know what I’m trying to get out of this relationship. You know that’s when the healing can really start to happen. So Dr Fallon says so what I do in this situation as I think. How do I treat the people in my life? As if I’m their son or their brother or their husband he said it’s about going the extra mile for them them so that they know. I know that this is the right thing to do. He said I know when the situation comes up but my gut instinct is to do something selfish so instead I slow slowdown I loved. I loved that he said that I slowdown and I try to think about it. He said it’s dumb behavioral modification. There’s no Vanessa this but I said well why does does there have to be finesse. He said I’m trying to treat it as a straightaway thing when the situation comes up to realize that. There’s a chance that I might be wrong or reacting in a poor way or without without any sort of love like a human. That’s brilliant any nurses. That might be hearing this right now or anyone who might be in a relationship with one This might be the key moment where you want to just have somebody here. This where he says. I’m trying to treat it as straightaway thing when the situation comes up to realize there’s a chance that I might be wrong or it might be reacting in a poor way or without any sort of love like a human so. This might be a something. Where if you’re if you want some more information He spends a little bit of the interview. Now talking about Psychopathy in children. And so I’m going to skip that for the sake of this podcast but again all show I’ll link to the article in the show who knows but He really goes on to talk a little. Bit more about plasticity earn the neuro plasticity of the brain. So he said that he he still as a neurologist does he said he’s still really doubts about plasticity. He said he’s trying to do these. This change by devoting himself to this one thing to be a nice guy that the people who are so the people who are close close to him. But it’s sort of a game. He says he’s playing with his self because he says he’s not really he doesn’t really believe it can be done. And it’s a challenge but he said in some ways though the stakes are very different. Or I’m sorry Jud do the interviewer says in some ways though the stakes are different for you.

00:35:03 – 00:40:05

Because you’re not violent and isn’t that the concern relative your own life attempts to change may positively impact your relationship with your friends and family colleagues but in the case of possibly violent people they may actually harm others and In doctor says the jump from being a pro social psychopath or or somebody on the edge who doesn’t act out violently to somebody who really is a real criminal Predator. He said. Isn’t that clear he said for me. I think I was protected because I was brought up in an upper middle class class educated environment with very supportive men and women in my family. So maybe a mass convergence of genetics and environment over a long period of time. But he said what would happen if I lost my family lost my job than what would I become. He said that’s really the test and I think this is You know I do get people off in that. Say that they feel like they’re teenager. Or maybe even even their their kid lacks empathy. And I’ve done some episodes on how to how to create empathy. There’s a two part episode. I did somewhere back in episode numbers maybe seventies eighties nineties where it really does talk about how to model empathy and I really encourage you to go back and find those episodes because it’s some really nice ways to kind of talk through or show how you express sympathy or to get someone when thinking a little bit more in pathetically but But so what Dr Fallon said is for people who have the fundamental biology. He said the genetics the brain patterns and the early existence since of trauma. First of all. If they’re abuse there the he says they’re going to be ticked off and have a sense of revenge He said they’re gonNA think thoughts often. Like I don’t care what happens to the world because I’m getting the even but he’s at a real primary psychopath doesn’t need that. He said they’re just predators. You don’t need to be angry at all. They just do these things because of some some fundamental lack of connection with the human race with individuals and so on so he said somebody who has the money the sex the rock and roll and everything may still be a psychopath but they may just manipulate people are used people and obviously not kill them. He said they may hurt others. Not In a violent way but he said most people care about violence. That’s the thing He said people may say Oh. This is a very bad. Investment Counselor was a psychopath but the essential difference in criminality between that and a murderer. Something that we all hate and we all fear he said it isn’t just that there’s some ultimate trigger and and I think that’s So where I was headed with that is sometimes you know I feel like if somebody does have a they have a kid and they grow up in a fairly healthy environment or where they have a nursery mom or nurturing data adder or maybe both where they do feel like there might be some of these psychopathic tendencies traits. But but I loved it. What Dr Fallon is saying? Is that That that nurture part is very important. Where they you know that? That’s why he titles this whole thing life of non violent psychopath so he said there isn’t an absolute fix Eksi said you talked about the import or the the author. The interviewer Judah says and though there is in an absolute fix she said you talk about the importance of what she calls the or he calls the fourth trimester Sir The months following baby’s birth when binding is key She asked what are other really crucial moments where you can see. Someone may be at risk or when there’s a convergence of genetics environment environment where that might be crucial for intervention or at least identifying. What’s happening and docked fallon says? There are some critical periods in human development. He said for the EPA genome the first moment when is the moment of conception so he said that’s where the genetics are very vulnerable to methylation and I look that up and it’s Basically kind of process of Halting some of the genetic movement movement or a little bit toward change and therefore he says the effects of harsh environment the mother under stress the mother taking drugs or alcohol things like that the second greatest susceptibility the bill is the moment of birth and and of course there are third and fourth trimesters. After that he said there’s a slew of our there’s a slow sort of susceptibility curve. That goes down so he goes on to say the first two years of life are pretty critical if overlap them with the emergence of what are called complex adaptive behaviors when children are born. They have some natural kind of genetic programming. For example a kid will show certain kinds. The fear of certain people have strangers and then it’s acceptance of people and he says that’s complex adaptive behaviour at work and social interactions but even laughing and smiling and making a raspberry Ashbury sound. Those are all complex. Adaptive behaviors and they will emerge automatically suicide. You don’t need to be taught those things so said that idea. Is that over the first three years that there over three hundred and fifty barry. Early Complex adaptive behaviors that go into sequence. But if somehow you’re interrupted with a stressor it might affect that particular behavior. That’s emerging or just about to emerge wjr so it could be a year and a half or three months or twelve months and he said after that the effects of environment really start to drop and by the time you start hitting puberty e Kinda sorta get locked in he said during puberty pretty your frontal lobe does do a bit of a switch so and if we want to get to. Let’s get into the science here. He says before puberty a lot of your brain your frontal lobe and its connections have to do with the orbital cortex the middle in that lower half of the brain that controls emotional regulation. He said it also is the origin of people’s natural sense of morality so when when they learn regulation and the rules of the game which are called ethics before then generally he said a normal kid is very much living in a world of ID eating drinking some sexuality but there are also extremely moralistic so those are two things that are fighting each other over those first years.

00:40:05 – 00:45:01

And I’ve often and I think I’ve said this on a podcast or two but I had a best describe to me the at one point where every kid is for the most part what Dr Valent talks about living in this world of ID where they are going from self centered every kid is self centered. That’s the way that they they come from the factory and then they slowly make this move from self centered self confident. But when that self-centered pieces stalled and you can see at times what personality disorders look like an adult’s where they seem like a giant twelve year old boy or girl where they do seem very self-centered so he said there’s a switch that occurs late adolescence. He said for some people it could be it could be seventeen or eighteen. Nineteen twenty years old. What happens is the upper part of the brain the frontal lobe and its connection start to mature and he says that’s a critical time? Because that’s usually when you see things like schizophrenia. Some forms of depression and some of those more major psychiatric disorders so for for personality disorders. It’s it’s not really known when they will emerge is very under studied. He said that people will say you can’t do anything about it. It’s locked in and there seems to be almost no treatment whereas things like depression or bipolar. I get Sabrina anxiety disorders. You can do something about it their drugs or there’s things you can do with brain stimulation and talk therapy. And he said that’s where big Pharma and the whole industry goes but what he said you really start to see personality emerge around puberty but for some children who might be primary psychopaths that is they have all jeans. And their brain. SORTA set in this quote third trimester. This can start emerging very early around two or three years old. And that’s where we have to be more trained Have more trained is because that’s where this becomes important for society. He said that a primary psychopath won’t won’t necessarily be dangerous but we can see that a kid if we can see it in a kid we can tell parents to look for certain kinds of behavior and if those behaviors emerge we can safely discussed protecting the privacy of that family and of the kid of course of how to have that child interact with a nurse practitioner. A trained professional. He said at that point we can say hey. Make sure. This kid really isn’t bullied elitist school or keep them away from street violence and so on so I think that’s where he’s saying. If you know the nature then you can kinda work more with the nurture. He said a lot of kids. Most kids get bullied elite and they might get ticked off that doesn’t create a personality disorder. So I want every parent to hear that part of your still with me. But he said there are twenty percent kids who are really susceptible and they may ultimately be triggered for something like a personality disorder puberty. He said if we know these children can be helped by making sure that they aren’t abused or abandoned. ’cause you gotta get there really early. He said that would be important to do. And he says he doesn’t mean to preach but then the interviewer Judah says we’ll we’ll go into the idea preaching a little bit. She said you make that kind of grandiose statement at the beginning of your book that research into psychopaths even with all the privacy concerns could have great implications for things from parenting to world peace. And so she says what does that mean and he goes on to say that means for example sampled if you have to go to war and he said and sometimes you probably have to go to war he said I’m not talking about a belligerent Country starting war or Fomenting discord but if you have to go to the war and to engage infantry he said in his opinion you don’t send eighteen year olds because their brains aren’t set he said they don’t really know how to adjudicate. What’s happening emotionally or hormonally with the intellectual he said when you’re twenty or twenty-five it can be a completely different matter because these things tend to jail a bit more? He said our emotions. Don’t get away from us and much of the terms of what’s happening. They they don’t and said other factors sociological ones. Like what soldiers returned to are also important but he said we’re not getting rid of war anytime soon so we might as well engage age in a way that does the least amount of damage. Okay so he goes on. There’s some other questions that she asked. I kind of think that makes the point that I was really hoping to get to today but I will put that in the show. Notes the article at the Atlantic. And also that would I’ll give you the link to the psychopath inside a neuroscientist personal journey into the dark side of the brain. So I- toyed with the of making this a two part episode but let me Let me just kind of go through the article that I mentioned earlier than this is from Dr Tracy Stein and you can find her at Dr. Dr D. R. T. R. A. C. I. T. N. DOT COM and so she has a really good article on psychology today. This has narcissistic sociopath. Similarities aries differences and signs. And so how about we go through this really quick and then we’ll kind of wrap it up. We’ll call it. We’ll call it a day in one episode so she goes on in a post links to this as well But talks about this depiction of colorful dangerous characters on TV and film and that that is a psychological term into the common vernacular these words narcissist sociopath that people what kind of kick those around all over the place and they truly do and she said that there’s certainly overlap between these two personality disorders. They’re both part of any psychology. GEEKS WANNA geek out a little bit here in the diagnostic statistical manual the DSM which is where we get our diagnostic criteria is there are mental health professionals They’re both part of what’s called this. Cluster you’re be group of personality disorders and that Those are comprised of things like narcissism Histrionic personality disorder antisocial personality disorder or borderline online personality disorder.

00:45:01 – 00:50:14

So in sociopath is actually captured by the diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder or APD is some call it so despite both being part of this what they call this dramatic erotic cluster this cluster B personality disorders that to disorders are definitely not interchangeable. And they’re also not so oh easy to identify day to day so she says that it’s much easier to spot in our sister sociopaths or those who are quote off in some way on TV than it is in real life life for variety of reasons. So she goes into these these seven reasons why it can be tough to spot them and I just wanted to go through that very quickly. So number launch says a matter of degree so somebody have traits of a disorder without meeting the full criteria. And this goes back to that matter degree where we kind of say these days. Things are all on a spectrum. So she’ll say she said this person will have a self centered or callous flavor but wouldn’t find them at the extreme end of the continuum with regard to those traits so there might be less frequent or less severe or you might be able to give them some feedback if the person’s a partner or friend or family member and they might even be open to some of the feedback. But they’re not very good with they don’t always take ownership of their own behavior. Said if you’re dealing with somebody who is narcissistic or sociopathic. You’ve probably already aware that you have to tread very carefully and building willing to withstand some of their air. No it’s not me. It’s you when you broach concerns about their behavior toward you and they’re also more likely to punish you through criticism or silence or covert aggression of some sort but the retaliation taliation is less intense or prolonged than it would be if the person might be at the severe end of the spectrum and she said with regard to the ladder. There’s a good chance that the person in question will not be able to do too much with your feedback but if they value your relationship than a less impaired person should be able to calmer work with you to a degree A person who has never wrong totally unwilling to compromise is actively vengeful is dealing with more than just a few of the traits of one of these personality disorders number two She goes on to say that they are skilled at impression management so the more skilled a person is at impression management. The more difficult it will be the label a personality or behavior as pathological so. Dr Stein says that that’s even a person with a a number of problematic. Traits can still present very charming and thoughtful and competent and in fact they can even be extremely skilled at getting you to help them or outdo out go do either bidding that you often will take responsibility for their heirs or insults and one reason for this is that narcissist in particular can make you feel extremely special when their attention is on on you and that feeling of specialness predict particularly seductive. She says it. Because narcissist in particular tend to pay extra attention to their appearance they can also often be very attractive which which only as their allure and someone who’s particularly intelligent well mannered well educated and is often More convincing people that they know best does appear to be a great catch inch and that leads the number three and this is the whole one of the main reasons. I wanted to talk about her. Take on this in her article. They have equal six cents for spotting the right people to manipulate and a long time ago. I did a article or I did an episode on. HSBC highly sensitive persons also called sensory processing sensitivity. It was a wonderful guest Nikki Eisenhower and in that. HSP episode You know there were a lot of questions that came out of that. Where people talked about this this convergence of HSP and narcissism? And so the more you start to do some digging around that you do find that a lot of people that are highly sensitive do end up in relationships with people that are on this spectrum of narcissistic personality disorder. So the big question is why and I think Dr Stein does a nice job explaining that she said narcissists and sociopaths passer extremely good at sniffing out trusting vulnerable people who tend to see the good and others so that they can often be very difficult for nice people to spot until the offender is freaked from tremendous in an undeniable having. She said repeatedly because people tend to view others as subscribing to a generally accepted moral code such as that lying and harming others wrong. Even another way savvy person can work hard to find the quote good reason why somebody must be acting off rather than identifying the problem of personalities behaviors for what they are so feelings of anger or distrust or fear about what we know about a loved one will cause great distress otherwise known as what’s called cognitive dissonance. That’s where kind of what you’re seeing and what you’re hearing or completely different things. So as a result most of us will wind up resolving this cognitive dissonance by reinterpreting backs that that that feel feel at odds with what we need and what we wanna believe about somebody. She went on to give an example of somebody who isn’t familiar with name. Michael Mastro Marino said. He’s a good example of somebody who exhibited significant narcissistic and sociopathic traits. But for years. Nobody around him knew the various things that he was capable of Mastro Marino was a very successful sessile dentist with a quote perfect life Granholm trusting wife. Beautiful children he’s also a master. Excuse makers serial philanderer abused prescription drugs and was convicted of running a multi million dollar scam scam and when she took body parts funeral homes and sold them too for medical research but for years his wife believed his lies and excuses because she was so in love with them and as his childhood sweetheart I she saw him Only in this drive to succeed and that he was handsome.

00:50:14 – 00:55:02

Charming young man with whom she fallen in love and a recent documentary. She spoke about how remained incomprehensible to her her that he could be guilty of the above until the evidence was truly overwhelming number. Four they look just like you said related to number three reading criteria for either disorder or watching news reports of criminals after their capture can lead one to assume that narcissists and sociopaths are easy to spot yet narcissus. sociopaths typically look just like you and me or even better given the narcissist ocean to appearance and She gave some examples of other people That said Bernie Madoff the DAPPER. Don John John Gotti and this Mastro Marino all quote normal looking people who were very polished well-dressed smooth and successful. She said your colleague relative neighbor Physician Dog Walker Walker or anybody else can have these traits and you probably wouldn’t even know it number five sometimes it just don’t seem to fit the profile so although men are much more likely to meet the criteria for narcissism awesome and socio apathy. Women can’t fit into these categories. That’s a nice old lady down. The street may be much more complex and less kind than you assume. She is related to the impression management management tendency Doctor says it nurses may become involved in charitable or other quote. Good guy causes not because they care so much about About the cause but because it makes them look good she said. sociopaths would only engage in quote good works if it gave them an opportunity to scam people or otherwise work assist. They’ve gained entry into Number six. She said that they won’t won’t necessarily commit an obvious. Crime rates of sociopath you’re hiring prisons and other forensic settings than in the general population seventy percent versus point two to three three percents respectively. So she says it’s logical to associate sociology with obvious criminality yet. Money and privilege can enable somebody to commit either type of a crime or a callous. Alice Act that is more difficult to detect or which somebody is less likely to be convicted of something illegal. So as an example said a wealthy business owner or an executive can repeatedly really default on debts They can bully workers they can harass employees or misrepresented product consumers. These behaviors are callous moral and in often cases illegal. But they’re also much more difficult to prosecute than petty theft caught on a surveillance camera for a variety of reasons and again because he’s personalities are particularly good at selecting their victims often. Their targets are in associated social economic position that makes it difficult or impossible for them to fight back and then finally. She said that they can be harmful without being dangerous. I so particularly in the case of nurses can be emotionally hurtful manipulative and vengeful. She said some Narciso physically aggressive when they feel psychologically injured but all aren’t she said similarly although narcissist sociopath believe they are exempt from the normal rules that govern the rest of us they’re typically less impulsive and less likely to cause harm or commit a crime than sociopaths are thus achieving verbally abusive partner or friend who betrays you repeatedly or personally exploitive colleague can cause hurt and havoc that leaves no visible scars. So then she quickly. Paraphrase is the criteria for both narcissistic antisocial personality disorder so and again antisocial personality disorder is the personality disorder that SOCI- society sociopaths fit into and she said keep in mind that somebody can meet many criteria for both of these as well as other disorders disorders so remember narcissistic personality disorder so Pervasive pattern of grandiosity and need for admiration a lack of empathy as indicated by five or more of the following. They have a grandiose sense of self importance exaggerate achievements expect to be recognized a superior without commiserate achievements Number two they’re preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited power our success brilliance beauty. Your idea love number three believes he or she is special they can only be understood by similarly special high status people number four. They require excessive. Evaporation number five. They have a sense of entitlement. Number six is Inner personally exploited number seven lacks empathy. Number Eight is envious of others or believes they are envious of him or her number. Nine shows arrogant haughty behaviors or attitudes. And I think if you go back and listen I’ve done an episode or two on these other sub types of narcissism and. Because they’re you know people say will my my you know the person I’m worried about doesn’t fit those criteria and again these are the diagnostic statistic Ziga manuals criteria for narcissism. But it appears that they are going to be some subtypes of narcissism most likely referenced in future Diagnostic Materials Cereals. So I would urge you to listen to those episodes. She talks about antisocial personality disorder and this is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since the age of fifteen is evidenced by three or more of the following failure to conform to social norms is evidenced by repeatedly performing accident grounds for arrest and number two deceitfulness. It’s number three impulsively number.

00:55:02 – 00:58:43

Four irritability aggressiveness is indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults number five reckless disregard for the safety of others number six consistent irresponsibility as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial commitments number seven lack of remorse is being indifferent to or rationalizing analyzing having hurt others and then the last one is if the individual is at least eighteen years of age. So you know again the. Where does this leave us? More research surged shown that several types of harmful personalities do have these traits in common Dr Stein Reference Some Paul House as study by this Paul House and colleagues. They’ve said what they referred to as they call it the dark tetrapod consisting of narcissists psychopaths Machiavelli and status and trade such as callousness and lack of empathy or common to all of them and someone can be a narcissist who may also be sadistic or a sociopath who also might be Machiavellian etc.. But the bottom line she says is that although terms like nurse Assistant sociopath our inner common vernacular there are important differences between them. And that said they’re not mutually exclusive. So if you find ears bottom line you find yourself in a toxic relationship relationship or you feel like the situation is too much to handle. It is definitely worth seeking counseling to help you. Take care of yourself and to prevent further problems so that is a lot of information that I throw it at you today. I hope that is okay. I hope he kind of hung with me and again I think the bottom line here is if you are in a relationship that is unhealthy. Then I definitely would encourage you to seek counseling Here’s one of the things where I didn’t say maybe could have gone with this at the beginning but I sites sociopath versus psychopath. I’ll end with this when this healthy place dot com article personalities orders. It says it. sociopaths often called psychopaths and vice versa but there are differences between a PSYCHOPATHIC sociopathic. PSYCHOPATHIC are far more likely to get in trouble with the law while sociopaths or more likely to blend in with society and while sociopaths and psychopaths do share some traits psychopathy Or Associati sorry which we just talked about was antisocial antisocial personality disorder is generally considered less severe than psychopathy? And so we talked about what is a sociopath Psychopaths can be thought of as more severe former associate apathy with more symptoms therefore all psychopaths are sociopaths but not all sociopaths are necessarily psychopaths so according to the Society for the study of Psychopathy Psychopath traits do include this lack of guilt. Remorse lack of empathy lack of deep emotional attachments narcissism superficial charm dishonesty Tapie Lewdness in reckless risk-taking and But it does go on to say that moreover at some believe that approximately ninety three percent of psychopaths are in the criminal justice the system. So that’s That’s pretty wild to kind of go with their Here’s a final quote. This is a presentation from one of psychopathy or sociology. How they differ according to Uh Dr Kelli McAleer The psychopathy The psychopath is callously at charming. He or she will manipulate others with charisma and intimidation and can effectively mimic feelings to present as normal to society. The psychopath is organized criminal thinking and behavior and they can maintain good emotional and physical control displaying little little to no emotional or autonomic arousal and even under situations that most would find threatening or horrifying. The psychopath is keenly aware. That what he or she is doing is wrong but quite quite frankly they don’t care. Conversely sociopath is less organized than his or her demeanor he or she might be nervous or easily agitated or quick. The display anger a sociopath is more likely to Abi spontaneously to act out in in appropriate ways without



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