Did I Just Have A Heart Attack? How to Make Change Last.

Posted by tonyoverbay

Tony talks about a recent health scare "wait, am I seriously having a heart attack?" and how that led to his desire to be more present, grateful and to make changes in his life. But do major life scares, events, even near-death-experiences (NDEs) lead to long-lasting change? Tony reviews this 5 steps of the "Transtheoretical Model of Change" or TTM from the article "Why it's Hard to Change Unhealthy Behavior - and Why You Should Keep Trying" from Harvard Medical School's Harvard Health Publishing site.https://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletter_article/why-its-hard-to-change-unhealthy-behavior-and-why-you-should-keep-tryingPlease subscribe to The Virtual Couch YouTube channel at https://www.youtube.com/c/TheVirtualCouchPodcast/ and follow The Virtual Couch on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/virtualcouch/

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Tony Overbay, is the co-author of "He's a Porn Addict...Now What? An Expert and a Former Addict Answer Your Questions" now available on Amazon https://amzn.to/33fk0U4. The book debuted in the number 1 spot in the Sexual Health Recovery category and remains there as the time of this record. The book has received numerous positive reviews from professionals in the mental health and recovery fields.

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[00:00:00] Ok, here goes, I think it's been a little while since I have recorded a podcast where I wasn't quite sure if this one would actually see the light of day. And that is not trying to be very dramatic, although the story I'm going to tell is going to sound a little bit dramatic. But truly, that's not my intention. It was about two or three weeks ago, and I will remember this very well. It was a Wednesday evening and on Wednesday evenings now I have a group call for my Pathbackrecovery.com group, the Online Pornography Recovery Support Group. That is one of my favorite things of the week. And I have a lot of people that I'm I'm looking at on Zoom, some people with their cameras on, some people with their cameras off. And I don't remember the particular topic we were talking about, but it was the conversation was going very well and I was feeling very in the moment. And I remember all of a sudden I really started to have chest pain. And that's one of my biggest fears. I'm not going to lie. I'm fifty one and a half years old. I've been an avid ultra marathon runner my as long as I can remember, twenty, twenty five years and fitness has been one of my passions. It's one of my core values. But if and I've heard other people have shared this experience as well. But for those who really do are almost consumed with fitness in this attempt to stay young forever, there's always that fear.

[00:01:13] And I think it's because people will bring this up from time to time, but that you're going to be that guy that is in good shape. And then you hear somebody says, oh, my uncle had a heart attack running around the high school track. He was in great shape. And so you do you hear these stories often? Because I think that that's just the way that we work as human beings. We want to have some relatable story. And if someone isn't necessarily a runner, they will either talk about old so-and-so is a runner or somebody ran a marathon. If you run the Boston Marathon, that sort of thing, or they'll tell you a story of someone they know that was a runner until something tragic happened. So I've heard plenty of those stories throughout my life. So there is this fear at times of what if I become that guy? And I've even gone so far as to do a fair amount of research on that guy and the person that does get the heart attack and and the date is pretty good. It shows that that person most likely would have gotten a heart attack, whether they were mowing the lawn or whether they were running or whatever they were doing, maybe even if they were just getting up from the couch, because it's not necessarily about the running per say, but it's about the the damage done to arteries.

[00:02:14] It could be something genetic. It could be something within their diet, diet, plus genetics, that sort of thing. So in one sense, I feel like, well, if that happens, it happens. But it's not going to stop me from doing things that I love, like running. So back to the story. So it's a Wednesday. I'm about ten to 15 minutes into this group call and I really start to feel this just pain in my chest. And I mean, I've had gas bubbles or those sort of things before, and I've gone a little bit hypochondriac on those and thought, oh, this is something I should really worry about. But this one got pretty intense to the point of where I started to start to feel a little bit clammy, starting to I think I'm getting a little bit pale. I'm watching myself on my on my webcam. And I'm just to the point. And I just I was telling my wife this, I think the later that evening. But I just got to the point where I was about to say, hey, hey, everybody on the call. I think I'm going to tap out here and I think I'm going to I think I need to do something. And I was starting to just become obsessed with what do I do? And as it started to get a little bit worse and worse and I remember having it wasn't necessarily one of these my life flashed before my eyes moments, but it really was a moment where I thought, OK, what do I do? Like, what if what if I go down in here and in front of all the people on the webcam, I was thinking, well, it's recorded.

[00:03:26] I guess there they'll see what happened eventually. But it was a wild feeling and it really was a feeling where I thought, oh my gosh, I, I still have all the stuff I want to do in my life. And and so I guess I did have a mini life flashed before my eyes kind of a moment. And I sat there and I kind of try to get present with the moment and breathe and and through my nose and out through my mouth. And I ended up not saying anything about it. And honestly, within a few minutes I was back to normal and I and I went about the rest of the call. I think I might have even had a client or two after the call to the point where when I went home that night, I almost forgot to tell my wife and one of my daughters is is in town as well. So I told them about it and they were. Oh, my gosh, Dad, are you OK? And you need to go see somebody. I don't know. Maybe I do. Maybe I do need to go check in. But that's been two or three weeks now and there's been many, many runs and peloton rides and hikes and that sort of thing since.

[00:04:18] And I feel great. And so I'm going to I'm going to attribute that to a gas bubble. But the whole point is it really did give me one of those moments where I thought I need to be more present. I need to take advantage of more opportunities to do things with those who I care about, those who I love. And it really did get me thinking about how often I've met with clients who have had these type of experiences, people that have literally had heart attacks, people that have had near-death experiences, people that have lost loved ones. And how that does give us a little bit of a reset. But what I really became fascinated by was the concept of how long does that reset last? Because here I am about two or three weeks after that event. And part of the reason I wanted to record something about it was so the. I would remember it because I feel like since I made it through, since maybe it was just the world's biggest gas bubble and am I still going to make good on the feelings I had in the hours, the days, the week or two following where I felt like, OK, wake up call. And so I got online and I started to research that whole concept of a wake up call and how often to wake up calls work.

[00:05:22] And if you look online, it really talks a lot about all of these experiences where people had these near-death experiences or these miraculous changes. And so then therefore, they went on to live more productive lives, more lives that were more connected with people that they cared about. But I have to tell you, from my perspective as a therapist, I often see a different side of that story. And I still remember one of the first clients that I that I talked to who had cancer. And they told me that one of the first things they did when they had a break, even when they were in getting chemotherapy in a hospital, was they said they're going to go out and take a walk. And they had smuggled in a cigaret. And so they went outside and smoked, even though they were there getting chemotherapy for lung cancer. And I remember talking with several other clients over the years who talked about how difficult it is to break some of the bad habits that they have even when they are nearing some life or death situation. And it made me realize just how how it can be so difficult to break a bad habit, or it can be so difficult to maintain a change where even a near-death experience can have someone think I have to do something different with my life. And I call it shelf life, where sometimes we do have a week or two weeks or maybe three weeks or a month where people say, OK, I'm going to I'm going to make all these changes in my life.

[00:06:38] You know, I see it even in the world of things like addiction, and especially when someone gets caught or when they finally feel like they need to confess to a spouse or to an ecclesiastical leader or someone that they don't want to do this anymore. And so then they have, again, this shelf life and oftentimes they start doing the work, whatever it takes, to get them in a better place. But then it's almost as if when we put our foot up off the gas, then we kind of revert revert. Hopefully I'll be able to edit that out. Then we revert back to the path of least resistance. We revert back to these deeply rutted neural pathways that are brain so knows the well. Maybe maybe it wasn't as big of a deal as I thought kind of a situation. Or we start to think that, OK, well, now I'm in a better place then I think I'm OK. I think I don't really need to worry about what all those memories or emotions that came flooding to my memory as soon as I had this this horrific experience. And so too often then we say, OK, I'm good now. Now I get it. And now I can kind of start to go back to where I was. But I'm more aware.

[00:07:43] And granted, being more aware is definitely a good thing. But is it enough? Is being aware all that you need? And no, I mean, being aware is one of the the steps of change. So today and you know what? I'm going to skip the intro. Welcome to today's episode of The Virtual Couch. I'm your host, Tony Overbay, licensed marriage and family therapist. Go find me on Instagram, a virtual couch or Facebook or go to Tony Overbay Dotcom. You'll find all kinds of things. They are links to podcast programs, courses, that sort of thing. But so today I also did a little digging and I did find something that I haven't talked about in quite a while. So rather than just do a bit of a reboot, I found an article, and this is one by Harvard Health Publishing from Harvard Medical School, and it talks about why it's hard to change unhealthy behaviors, but yet why you should keep trying to do that. And the article talks about the fact that researchers say that successful change comes in stages and how long it takes is absolutely an individual matter. And I think that is something that I see on a day to day basis when people say, I know that this should be easier for me, I know I should be moving along the path of change faster. And I often do say now Will says who? Again, if I go back to my favorite modality of act acceptance and commitment therapy, you're it.

[00:08:54] You're the only version of you that's ever walked the face of the earth. So who are you comparing to? We have a desire or a nature or it's built within us to compare to others because that's part of our survival strategy. We feel like if for some reason we don't fit in with the crowd, the crowd is going to boot us out and we're going to be devoured by wolves. But that's no longer the case. That's that's some deep genetic imprinting on our brains. No, in reality, we are the only versions of us. And the sooner that we can get to that feeling of being authentic, the sooner that we can get to living the way that we really want to live or the we feel that we are best suited to live based on our values. The sooner we can get to that point that I feel like that is when we can make change because the change has to come in in a way that works for us. And a change can only come when it's about something that matters to us. You know, if I wasn't a runner to begin with and I had a little bit of a scare and then somebody said, you know, you really shouldn't run, OK, done, done and done. No worries there. I won't run ever again. But running is part of who I am. It's in my core. It's been my survival strategy.

[00:09:56] It's been my therapy. It's been my way to commune with. Odd in nature, it's been my way to listen to audiobooks and learn it's been a way to to tap into what I didn't even know of at the time was, by the way, my aide shows up that if I'm running, I got part of my brain locked into the running and the other part of my brain can now focus on whatever I'm listening to. I've devoured audio books as I ran, where if I tried to sit down and read them, I lose my place, I lose my I lose my my whole vibe, my mojo, my energy. I fall asleep. So running can mean so much to me. So if someone's telling me, well, just don't run, then that's where I feel like, well, even if I were to say, well, yeah, I probably shouldn't, but I know in my core that's what I'm going to do because that's who I am. So again, researchers say that successful change comes only in stages and however long it takes is an individual matter. And I wanted to dig down in this article. I'm going to skip a big part of the beginning of it. But it does talk about change being a process, not an event. And this is part of what I wanted to talk about. And this is what I did an episode on. It's probably been a couple of years ago, but it's called the trans theoretical model of Change or will the TTM trans theoretical model.

[00:11:00] And so the the Harvard article talks about that there are several models of behavior change, but the one that's most widely applied and tested in health settings is this trans theoretical model change. And it was first developed in the 1980s. It was by an alcoholism researcher named James. And I feel so bad when I put your names, but it's pro Chaska and Karlo DiClemente. But Trans the trans theoretical model presumes that at any given time a person is, as in one of these five stages of five stages of change. There's pre contemplation, there's contemplation, there's preparation, action and maintenance. And then some people do at a six stage, which is relapse because we're human. So in talking about these stages of change and the pre contemplation, let's let's break this one down. And actually, let me give you a little bit more background. They talk about this in the article. The idea is that people move from one stage to the next, but that each stage is a preparation for the following when so hurrying through or skipping stages is most likely going to result in a set back. And also different strategies are needed at different stages. For example, they say that a smoker who's at the pre contemplation stage that is not even really thinking about quitting smoking probably isn't ready to make a list of alternatives to smoking. So that's why it's very important to identify where you're at in this model of change.

[00:12:15] And most of the evidence for this model comes from studies of alcohol, drug abuse, smoking cessation. But it's also been applied to a lot of different health behaviors, including exercise and dieting. That's where I found it when I first did the episode on this a couple of years ago. But clinicians, health educators, they use the trans theoretical model to work with patients, counsel patients. But you don't have to be an expert to try this approach. That's what I love about it. Anybody motivated to change can use this to see where you're at, assess your situation and formulate strategies for success. So here are the trans theoretical model, the stages of change. And then again, according to this Harvard study, Harvard article, the way that people some ideas about how people move through them. So let's talk about pre contemplation. So at this stage, pre contemplation, you have no conscious intention of making a change, whether it's through lack of awareness or lack of information. And so the example they give is that if overweight is my family overweight, my family is genetic and it's just the way we are or because you maybe have failed at making change in the past and you felt less than or demoralized. The example would be, I've tried so many times to lose weight that it's hopeless. So in those moments, this is part of that pre contemplation phase.

[00:13:22] You tend to avoid reading or talking or thinking about unhealthy behavior, but your awareness and interest might be sparked by outside influences such as some public information campaign. Or you might see some feel good story in the media. Or you might. Yeah, I mean, you might see I noticed that a lot of people get motivated by when they see some person on Instagram or Facebook or they see these before and after pictures or they have emotional experiences or illness, or they talk about how, you know, clinicians or family members concern that when someone says you need to make a change and I talk about an emotional experience, I think that's what I had a couple of weeks ago, that I'll now classify that as a bit of an emotional experience of, oh, my gosh, what if I get a heart attack? What do I do? I got to do things different. So to move past pre contemplation, you have the sense that the unhealthy behavior is at odds with very important personal goals, for example, being healthy enough to travel or to enjoy your children or grandchildren. And that is absolutely a an important personal goal of mine, is I want to be around. I love my life. I've got so many cool things I want to do. And it's not that it was always that case. It wasn't until I really found this passion, this career of working and doing the things that I love.

[00:14:29] I've talked about it many times. I did ten years in computer software. I didn't even know that you could really enjoy your job. As a matter of fact, I'm just rambling here, but it's kind of fun. Haven't done one of these in a while, but I often have people bringing this into my office. This concept of, you know, I don't want to I don't want to do a job based on something I love because I don't want it to just become a job. And I've even sat with clients and I've thought about that. And I've I mean, I validated that. And of course, I will, if that's their experience. But then all of a sudden it hits me one day. Where I thought, well, I did 10 years of a job that I didn't care for so that I could then have time to do the other things, hanging out with family run vacation. And I realized that man, that that eight to 10 hours or more, whatever that is, that consumes you and your day to day, if that's something you don't enjoy. I mean, that's a big energy zap to to happen throughout your day, to then come home and say, all right, everybody, I'm ready. You know, I'm ready to now do all the things I want to do that oftentimes I feel like that is what leads to people coming home and feeling like exhausted, mentally exhausted from trying to to do something they don't necessarily feel a connection with or feel joy in doing.

[00:15:36] And that can often lead to me. And I'm just tired. I'll I'll do the fun thing I want to do later. I'll do it tomorrow. I'll do it this weekend. I'll do it in the summer. I'll do it next year. Although when the kids are older, so, so part of me feels like it really is about trying to find what that is that you really care about. And if you can't just immediately pivot and go do some Value-Based Job, Value-Based Goal in your job, work your values into your job, I've talked about that often. I've talked about people that have had value of connections. So they they bring that into their current situation and they try to connect with more people or they have maybe a value of had someone that had a value of the environment. They they suggested putting in place a green waste program within their their office, within their company. This very large company ended up leading to a different career position. So it's never too late to work values into your job while you maybe you're looking at turning toward a value based job if that would work for somebody. So to move again, to move past pre contemplation, you have a sense of the unhealthy behavior that you're doing is at odds with these important personal goals. So after contemplation comes contemplation and in some programs and studies that employ this trans theoretical model, people who say they're considering a lifestyle change in the next six months are classified as people that are contemplating this.

[00:16:53] That would be the second stage contemplation. But in reality, people often vacillate for a lot longer than that. I mean, you've maybe felt that in certain things in your life where you've contemplated making a change for far longer than six months. And in this stage, you might be aware that behavior is a problem and you might be even be considering doing something about it. We still are committed to taking action. And so this is where they the article talks about ambivalence. That ambivalence may lead you to weigh in, reweigh the benefits and costs. If I stop smoking, I'll lose that hacking cough. But I know I'll gain weight or I know smoking could give me lung cancer, but helps me relax. If I quit, stress would kill me too. And health educators often use several techniques to help people. What they say, unstick themselves and move on to the next stage. One is to make a list of the pros and cons of making a lifestyle change and then examine the barriers of the cons and think of ways to overcome them. That can really be a powerful tool. For example, a lot of they talk about here, a lot of women find it difficult to get regular exercise because it's inconvenient or they may have too little time, especially if they're chasing toddlers around all day.

[00:17:51] But if finding a 30 minute block of time to exercise is a barrier, how about two separate fifteen minute sessions or three ten minute sessions or how about just a little bit each day? Could somebody else cook dinner so you can take a walk after work? Or if you feel too self-conscious to take an exercise class, how about buying a tape instead to use at home? And if you've been there, which I feel like we all have been there in the contemplation stages where your brain's going to fight you, it's going to give you a lot of that. Yeah, but, you know, how about taking an exercise tape to use at home? Your brain's really good at saying. Well, yeah, but but I don't really I don't want to put myself out there. I don't want to do that. I don't want anybody to see me doing it. I you know, I don't really like those classes. I don't like doing things at home. And so those are a lot of times where we get to learn how to say, OK, well, we're not even arguing that we like it or don't like it. But is it a productive thought of trying to work some exercise into our day? So that's not contemplation mode. After that, experts say in this trans theoretical model comes preparation. And at this stage, you know, you need to change. You believe that you can and you're starting to make plans to change soon.

[00:18:52] They talk about maybe, let's say, in the next month. So you might have joined a health club or purchased a supply of nicotine patches or added a calorie counting book to the kitchen shelf. And at the stage, it's important to start to take a look at potential obstacles. So if you're thinking about lowering your alcohol consumption, then be aware of situations that they promote drinking, you know, avoid the social situations. That might be a problem. You know, if preparing a dinner makes you want to have a drink, then have seltzer water there instead of wine. And if social situations are the problem, then really make a list of alternative find safe people that will help you help you in those situations to go to a movie instead of having drinks or dinner with friends. But at the same time, you you have to be honest with yourself. That's where the article talks about that. It's going to take as long as it takes for you based on your situations. So create a realistic action plan, have achievable goals. If you've been sedentary and you want to start exercising more, then don't immediately think I got to go run a marathon. There's some really cool programs like couch to five K wear. Start making it a goal to avoid using the elevator, climb the stairs, park further away from work, or plan to just go on a ten minute walk at.

[00:19:59] Every day, and this can help you start working your way up to these more ambitious goals, you can start to raise your emotional baseline so that you can start to take more action on on change. So after preparation, so we've got free contemplation, we've got contemplation, we've got preparation. Here comes action. So at this stage, you've changed. Yeah, maybe you've stopped smoking. For example, according to this author of The Theoretical Model, per Chaska, he says cutting down would not be action or preparation for action. And you've begun to experience the challenges of life without your old behavior. And it can be hard. You'll need to practice the alternatives that you identified during the preparation stage. You have to be intentional about these steps. For example, if stress tempts you to eat, then you can use healthy coping mechanisms such as yoga or deep breathing or exercise. At the stage. It's important to be really clear about your motivation. So they say in the article, if necessary, write down your reason for making the change and read it every day. This is different than just a, quote, positive affirmation of just saying, hey, you're the man or you're an awesome person. It's saying, I want to I want to be around for my grandkids. You know, I want to I desperately want to be the grandpa that goes running with my grandkids. I really do. And so at that, it's really clear about your motivation.

[00:21:10] So write down those reasons, read them, engage in some positive self talk to bolster your resolve. You can get support. You can join groups. You can this is where it's important to be vulnerable. Let others know that you're making a change. It's OK. Your own brain is going to say, yeah, but I don't wanna put myself out there in case I fail. Then that's just a story your brain's trying to hook you to, because if it can, then you're not going to go seek help. We're all human. We're all going to have times where we succeed, where we maybe have setbacks. And that's part of the process. It's time is this is your life. You know, it's time to really find ways to overcome those path of least resistance or those deep neural pathways. An after action, they talk about maintenance once you practice the new behavior change for they even say up to at least six months now, you're more or less in the maintenance stage. Now you're working on preventing relapse and integrating the changes into your life. And that may require other changes, especially avoiding situations or triggers that are associated with your old habits. And it can be really tough. And they talk about especially if it means steering clear of certain activities or friends while you work to fully assimilate your new healthier habits. And and in the bottom line is it can take a few rounds and the path from one stage to the next isn't always as linear and direct as I've made it sound.

[00:22:20] That's where we build in after that action phase. And they even talked about it in that action phase, this relapse. I think in the episode I did a couple of years ago, I was pulling from an article that literally talked about a sixth stage, which is relapse because again, we're human. And in the article said one study found the smokers trying to quit cycled an average of three or four times through the action stage before they eventually succeeded. And that when relapse occurs during the maintenance stage, you might find yourself back at the contemplation or the preparation stage or maybe even all the way back to pre contemplation. If the relapse was so demoralizing that you are thinking, I don't even know if I want to change, but relapse is common and they go on to say it might even be inevitable. But so experts urge people not to be derailed by it, but think of it as an integral part of the change process. So you're going to learn something about yourself every time that you have a setback, every time you relapse, for example, with my people that I'm working with with that are trying to overcome turning to pornography as a coping mechanism. You know, they I often talk about the difference between impulse control and compulsive behavior. You know, compulsive behavior is this premeditated thing. So people that are constantly looking for when they're going to get their next fix, whatever that fix is, shopping, pornography, alcohol, food, you name it.

[00:23:30] And a lot of times you can have someone get the the contemplate the compulsion under control. But then they still fall prey to an impulse, meaning that there's a lot of things that can lead up to an impulse. Somebody can be there's an acronym Hault. Somebody can be hungry or angry or lonely or tired, and they can fall prey to an impulsive decision. But that doesn't mean you throw the baby out with the bathwater. That's just part of being human. That might be one of these setbacks. And you just recalibrate. I often say break down the game film we know. Where did you where did you where can you bolster up that that game plan so that you can be more successful so that you can stay in that action phase. But remember, it can take a few rounds and those steps of pre contemplation, contemplation, preparation, action and maintenance, those are often just wonderful, amazing tools to just help you frame this, whatever the experiences is that you're going through in life. So if I go back to my what I thought was maybe a heart attack that I opened this thing with in the beginning, that did cause me to want to be more present. Now, one of the things that I was grateful for is I have a daily mindfulness practice, so I feel like I jumped right in at the preparation stage.

[00:24:37] I know I need to make some changes. I can and I'm making plans to soon. So then it was a matter of taking action. I was able to go on a trip over Memorial Day. I just got back last night and there were so many times where I started thinking about the week ahead or thinking about next month or thinking about other opportunities, even amazing opportunities that caused me to have a little bit of stress or a little bit of anxiety. And I thought. And yeah, those are opportunities and there and I'm going to deal with those, but right now I need to be present. I need to be here with my family here in this moment because I need to just squeeze every moment out of life, because, man, if that if that was a heart attack, if that was giving me a little heads up on how quickly things could change, then I'm so grateful for it. I'm grateful that that becomes one of my inact. They call them private experiences, one of my nature, nurture, birth, order, DNA, abandonment, rejection, all those things that just happen that now that I've had that experience, now it is time to take change. And this trans theoretical model of change can really help me move toward change. As long as it's changed, that's important to me. And then the fact that I want that change doesn't mean that it's going to happen overnight.

[00:25:44] It means that it's a process. And this trans theoretical model of change is a very good marker of what that process looks like so that I can get to this better place. So I hope that you don't feel like you have to have a similar experience because, man, that's still hurt. I mean, I would hurt right in my chest. And but I hope that you can sometimes I mean, I feel like sometimes we hear of other people's experiences and we think, oh, hey, I got a I got a rally. I got to figure some things out. So I hope that that might be the case today. It's time to rally, you know, it's time to figure things out. What's important to you and what do you want to do more of? What would you like to do? Less of? What direction would you like to point your life toward? What are your core values? Have you identified him yet because it's important to identify what your core values are, not what other people say that they should be. And so as you identify those and now you identify some action steps to take toward each one of those values, then when you do start to feel stuck or you start to feel overwhelmed, now you can take a deep breath and in through the nose and out through your mouth breath and you can kind of point yourself toward a direction of a value-based goal.

[00:26:46] And that really is a big piece of making that change, that change that will eventually become the new, deeply rooted neural pathway so that you find yourself pretty much constantly being present and that when your brain starts to drift away, that your brain actually catches it on its own and says, hey, get back here. Our goal is to be present. We've been working on this for a long time. This is now the way that we do things. So I hope you have a great week. I think this one, we'll see the light of day. I think this episode will will Will will hit the podcast airwaves. And and if you're interested in more about the trans theoretical model of change, I'll go ahead and put the link to this Helfgot Harvard edu article in the show notes. And hey, later this week, I got a kind of a cool bonus episode coming up from my buddy Kurt Francom of Leading Lights on acceptance and Commitment Therapy. That's just a little bit of a teaser recorded, an actual intro and everything. So if you made it this far, you'll know what's coming next hour, later this week. If not, it'll be pretty funny because I don't think I say anything on the intro of the episode. And then but we get into acceptance and commitment therapy in a way like I've never done before. So have an amazing week. Taking us away, as per usual, is the wonderful, the talented, incredibly talented Aurora Florence with her song, which is always, always so appropriate. It's wonderful.

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