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Good People Trying to Make Sense of Nonsense (Gaslighting)

Posted by tonyoverbay

Today we tackle why good people look for reasons their narcissist is acting off rather than accepting the situation for what it may be. Plus, Tony describes four types of gaslighting. Please submit your questions as well as your gaslighting examples through the contact form at http://tonyoverbay.com

#gaslighting #communication #compassion #therapy #virtualcouch #wakinguptonarcissism #tonyoverbay #tonyoverbayquote #quote #podcast #podcasting #acceptancecommitmenttherapy #motivation #coach #addictionrecovery #narcissism #happiness #behappy #mentalhealth #wellness #anxiety #relax #mindfulness #happy #depression #mentalhealthawareness #mentalhealthmatters #psychology #MadeWithDescript #DescriptPro

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[00:00:00] Hey, everybody. Welcome to episode four of Waking Up the Narcissism, I'm your host, Tony Overbay. And let's dove right in. I would love to encourage you to continue to send your examples questions. Anything that is on your mind through the contact form at Tonyoverbay.com have been compiling all of that on one Google document. And I have to tell you, I think we're up to about 13 or 14 pages single space. So that is to say that the feedback has been overwhelming, and I wanted to highlight just a few things with regard to feedback, just because I want you to know that there is comfort in numbers. I know that that doesn't bring resolution. But the what I'm hearing is just hear some examples. Just I've listened to the podcast several times with tears running down my face. Thanks for spreading awareness to so many people trapped, abused, confused and secure and uncertain. What's real? Listening to your podcast was shocking. I could have sat in your office chair in my life that became the foundation of your podcast or someone saying, I just listen to the first episode. It's absolutely mind blowing. This is my life. I've been married for this many years with my spouse. We have kids together. Everything you said in the first episode is my life. It's scary. I'm looking forward to listening, but but also scared and and I imagine that I can understand that that's going to be the feeling a lot I had someone else talking about.

[00:01:19] They were in the midst of grieving this idealized relationship with their parents and now recognizing the narcissism. And just this person in particular said they never paused a podcast to look up. The author tracked down the contact info and contact them just to say thank you. So I'm just grateful that people are finding a little bit of comfort and just knowing that they're not alone. Another another one says, Oh gosh, episode two had me, especially when you were talking about the emails you were talking about. They said, this person said that they've been going to couples therapy. It's just gone really bad. They feel broken. At this moment. Their spouse feels like they're being selfish and that he's been stonewalling them between sessions. And so it's just so I'm so grateful that people are finding comfort and understanding that it really just is not them. They're not alone. And there's also, if I do just a search for the word crazy in the emails, that's there's it's used often someone saying here, they say that there are times that their spouse and them, they feel like they're just roommates, then they would love for their relationship to be better. And in this particular instance, this this person who submitted the email said that talking about their husband, he literally said, I'm sorry you feel that way, but then walk away. And she said, if I don't ask questions in a certain way, then he won't answer me and it'll either be quiet or he'll say that I don't understand what you're saying and the latter one, because then if she clarifies better what she means.

[00:02:47] But now, if it's in a judgmental way, then he says that she's phrasing the question wrong and then he'll rarely talk to her. But here was one of the big keys is that she said she can count on her hand how many times that he has inquired about her personally. But then what breaks my heart is this next line and again, the word crazy. I can find that in the emails that people are sending me, she says, Am I crazy? I feel crazy. Sometimes rarely is is anything his fault, and he almost always has to be right. However, with that said, I still feel like most of the hard parts of our relationship are my fault. Why can't I be OK with the way things are? And she said, I just it's I don't like when he put such a negative light because he really is a good person. I know I'm not perfect, and that's the part that again just breaks my heart and I wanted to address that. There's a quote from an article that I included. There's a virtual couch episode on this, and it was one about psychopaths versus sociopaths. And so it's a little bit of a hidden gem at the end of that one, and it's from an article called Narcissist or Sociopath.

[00:03:45] The similarities, the differences in the signs. This is back from Twenty Sixteen, a Psychology Today article, but this quote has just stuck with me for so long, and they talk about it. The narcissist or the sociopath are both extremely good, or they have a sixth sense for spotting the right people to manipulate. And I do believe it's a subconscious thing. It's not as if they are out there just wanting to prey on someone. It's just that's the person that they find is the person that will engage with them, the person who will fall victim to the love bombing. But here's what this this article says it says narcissists and sociopaths are extremely good at sniffing out trusting vulnerable people who tend to see the good in others. Thus, they can be very difficult for nice people to spot until the offender has wreaked tremendous and undeniable havoc. And relatedly, because people tend to view others as subscribing to a generally accepted moral code such as that lying and harming others is wrong. Even an otherwise savvy person can work hard to find the good reason why somebody is acting off, rather than identifying problem personalities and behaviors for what they are. And I'll go on about that in a little bit. But boy, I tried to read that as slow as I can, just because there's so much there. That nice people, it's very difficult for a nice person who's willing to give someone the benefit of the doubt to then call someone out on their gaslighting or the inconsistencies of their story, even if they are very confident that what they're seeing is a lie.

[00:05:16] And so the next part of that quote, relatedly, because people tend to view others as subscribing to a generally accepted moral code and that one in itself, we tend to think that people see life through the same lens that we do. And I was speaking at an event a few nights ago and and I'll just tell a quick story. There were a few years ago I used to run around a track in my local town for 24 hours to raise money for schools and for kids and those sort of things. And the first year that I was running this race, I had never ran the race before, and it was an all new experience or it wasn't a race, but it was running around the track for 24 hours. And so I didn't exactly. I had a million bananas and gels and hydration, and every time I run around the track, I'm saying to my wife, How am I doing? And she's saying, You know, you're doing great, you're doing better than you think. And I ended up having some, some struggles, some challenges, some issues ended up making it through. We raised a lot of money for the community.

[00:06:08] I think that first year ran about 111 miles. And afterward I was I was sharing notes with my wife and I kind of just said, Hey, when you would tell me you're doing awesome or you're doing better than you think. How did you know that? And and I loved it because she just said something to the effect this was years ago, but something like, well, it was the first time we're doing it. I mean, you're doing it, you were doing it as well as you could do it. And I think about that often of you're going through this life for the first time, you're going through that marriage or that awareness or awakening to narcissism for the first time. And so how would you not think that other people are ascribing to the same beliefs or that that we all see things through a similar lens? That's normal, that's human. There's nothing wrong with you for thinking that we're all kind of seeing things similar in that same vein. And this presentation earlier this week, I also talked about how what's fascinating is that you can have two people stand side by side and have them see the same thing. So you've got the same input, but then have them literally in that very moment, write down what they saw. And it's going to be two completely different outputs. And so it can be that simple that we're we're just experiencing things for the first time it at any given moment.

[00:07:23] And then we're also then bringing in that input and then our output is going to be different. So everyone is going to be different. But this is where I want to tell you the narcissist, the sociopath, the psychopath. They're they're coming from a completely different place, and it sounds like I'm being mean or judgmental. But part of the reason I was excited to do this podcast is I just need to at this point say that's it's we just need to accept that because again, as I covered in earlier episodes, this comes from some deep childhood wounding. We got some nature and some nurture going on. And so when somebody is worked from a, you know, when they've started operating from a mindset of that, they can literally never be wrong or that will be abandonment and abandonment equals death, then, especially when you're going through that in your youth, where again, every kid is already a little egotistical, narcissistic being just because they're a kid. But then with the right modeling, with the right people, parenting them well with people that they in their in their immediate sphere of influence are taking ownership of their behaviors or actions or apologizing for things. So if you see that behavior and you have that secure attachment with your parents, with your, with your friends, with those around you, you're going to grow from self-centered to self-confident. But if you are self-centered to begin with, which again, we all are as little kids because the world revolves around us, because that's just the way that that life works.

[00:08:52] But if you don't have that modeling, if you don't have that example, if the people in your life have haven't taken ownership for their behaviors or they are a bit absentee or so many other factors, then that person goes from self-centered to self-centered. So that's where it can feel like you're arguing at times with a with a 10 year old boy or a 10 year old girl, so to speak. And the reason I go into that is because now fast forward 20, 30, 40 years where that person has been on that pathway. You've been on a completely different one and you're now let's say that you're on the West Coast and you're describing the beach in the ocean, and there's somewhere in the middle of Kansas talking about a cornfield. And so you're you're even talking about two completely different things. The the problem I don't want to frame is a problem, but the problem is you get to realize, Oh my gosh, they're talking about Kansas and they're saying, I don't even know what you're talking about. Like, that's ridiculous. You know, all I see in front of me is cornfields and wheat. And so and they'll convince you of that to the point where all of a sudden you're sitting there looking out at the ocean and you're thinking, Hey, my, is this even real? You know, or because they're pretty convincing.

[00:10:01] So when you look at it that way, I go back to this quote because people tend to view others as subscribing to a generally accepted moral code, such as that lying and harming others is wrong, then a otherwise savvy person is working hard to find the good reason why somebody is acting off rather than identifying the problem personalities and behaviors for what they are. And I remember the first time I read that quote, even in this episode, I just moved past that that lying and harming others is wrong, but it's real. I mean, I have worked with clients who have been sat across from their spouse in a court case and watched their spouse, their narcissistic spouse, lie to the judge, lie to the jury. I've been in court cases where I have testified on behalf of a client in a getting out of a relationship with with the narcissistic person and and that that narcissist has is just openly lied in court. But it's because they're just not going to ever be wrong because being wrong is abandonment and abandonment equals death. And the hard part is that they typically surrounded themselves with people that eventually just give in or acquiesce or just say, OK, I guess that's the way it is that then they're assuming that the judge is going to do that. Their attorneys are going to do that.

[00:11:14] There's there's fascinating data that shows how often that a narcissist even going through, let's say, a legal proceeding changes their attorney. Why? Because they know more than their attorney. So when their attorney doesn't agree to do what they tell them to do, then they say, OK, well, you don't get it, you're fired. And then they eventually find, I mean, I'm over generalizing, trust me, because I'm sick. Then they eventually find an attorney who says, OK, hey, it's your money. I'll say what you want me to say. So and then what does that do? It just becomes more of this echo chamber of they get that validation. And so the next part of this quote is pretty interesting, too. So then feelings of anger, distrust, distrust or fear about what we quote know about a loved one is going to cause us great distress, otherwise known as cognitive dissonance. So as a result, then most of us wind up resolving this cognitive dissonance by reinterpreting the facts that feel at odds with what we need and want to believe about somebody. So what does that mean? So we've already talked about how nice people are are in these relationships. We talked about that last episode. I think this human Magna syndrome, the pathologically kind, meet the pathological narcissist, and that does create this unfortunate, you know, this trauma bond, this human magnet syndrome. And now the nice person believes that that person that they're married to must be operating at least from a similar moral code.

[00:12:39] So then, even if they watch their spouse lie, then they think there's got to be a reason. Maybe he's just tired. Maybe he's just stressed. Maybe it is because I'm not doing what he wants me to do, but that's not the case. You know, so now all of a sudden, the nice person is working hard to find the good reason why somebody acting off rather than recognizing this pattern or this problem personality or the behavior for what it is. So now now they feel anger or they don't trust them or they fear what the person across from them is saying or doing. And that causes distress. It causes us to feel this cognitive dissonance. I don't like what I'm feeling and what I'm seeing because it's different than what I want to believe. And so our brain needs to make sense of things. So then at that point, we are going to resolve that cognitive dissonance by reinterpreting the facts that feel at odds with what we need, what we need and we want to believe about somebody. We're going to start creating a narrative that it must be all these other external factors. You know, again, maybe stressed or hungry or tired or, you know, we're not having enough sex or whatever it is. And then what does that do? Now, all of a sudden, now I can even internalize it because I'm the nice person.

[00:13:48] So now I can say, Man, it must be me, it really must be me. But but then when we talked about this on this, this women's group last night, what an amazing call. And a lot of people have reached out and have asked about joining this, this group, and please feel free to reach out and contact me. And it was such a powerful call, though there were a lot of new people on there, but then people then start to do the again, the what's wrong with me story. And then we had a big part of the call last night where, you know, it's natural or normal. Then to start thinking, OK, I just need to. I just need to try. I just need to to try to do more. And so if he's saying that, I need to. I don't know if I need to be more physically attentive, if I need to do whatever, and then they do. Well, guess what? Yeah, now it's something else. Well, now you never ask me how I'm doing, or now you just expect this of me. So then the nice person will. Then they'll then, you know, mold themselves into this whatever that the narcissist wants them to be. But then surprisingly, now it's something else. And that even goes on after separation or even after divorce, where now the nice person will go back and think, Oh my gosh, if I would have just done more of this other thing that he said, then maybe the relationship would have worked.

[00:14:56] And bless your heart, but that's where I say. That game is never ending, because if you and here's the kind of the cool, deep psychology around that is that to the person that is never willing to take ownership or nothing is ever their fault. And again, I'm talking about a default from childhood experiences. So if that is the case, then it's they've spent their lives saying, it's not me, it's you. If you'll just do this or this or this, then everything will be better. But when you do that, then it's something else, because if they can continue to point the blame outward or external, then and I think you can maybe see where I'm going, then who does not have to take accountability or ownership of their actions, them? So and I've had some fascinating examples of this in cases where I once had a client that came to me for it and I'll say, quote, quote, pornography addiction. But then when they came in, they were they were having some acting out behaviors every few months, I mean, months. So definitely didn't fall into the category of addiction. That's for sure. And so it was relatively easy to, to quote, cure this person. And at one point, their spouse came to me and said, Oh my gosh, you, you've worked a miracle with him. You know, I've got I've got my husband back.

[00:16:09] And so then it was time for them. They said, OK, they're going to start to do their work. But when they started to do their work, it was difficult and it was scary. And so they they withdrew from the therapy with their therapist. And at that point? Now what happened? Now they they said, OK, no, now he's doing these other things. And I was working with him at that time, this person and we did everything we could to have him, you know, he still was not acting out. There was no relapse. He would be more attentive. He was trying to do more of one one person. Couples therapy is what I was calling it. But it was never enough until then. Finally, some heavy accusations were logged against this person and because ultimately, the person with the narcissistic tendencies or narcissistic traits when it got to the point where they didn't have anything else they could blame externally. And then they they tried to do a little bit of a deep dove on themselves, and it got uncomfortable and scary. Then it was almost like this reflexive action to then point it right back at the person, someone else to project onto someone else because then again, I don't, it's not about them. And so you can start to see the pathology around that and where that can lead. I'm going to wrap this up pretty quick here, but I wanted to really quickly touch on.

[00:17:24] I got so many emails talking about gaslighting because it's interesting. You know, people ask, does the does the narcissist know they're gaslighting? You know, is there? Hey, all of a sudden they realize, Wait, I'm gaslighting too. And so I did an episode long ago on types of gaslighting, so I was going to go through those really quick. This is from an article from I think it's from called the Good Men Project, and it talks about four levels of gaslighting. I think this is this interesting, and I'm going to be honest on my virtual couch podcast, I'm talking about more general mental health issues. And so I think in that scenario, I'm trying to just put it out there to the universe, you know? And I think sometimes that can be used against the kind person. What I mean by that is that this podcast is called Waking Up the Narcissism. So I'm talking to the people that are are waking up to narcissism. It's rare that the narcissist because again, they don't know their narcissist. If you're asking yourself, Am I the narcissist? Most of the, I mean, number one rule is no, you're not, because you're asking yourself, because that means you have some awareness that you're aware of of you have a sense of self. You know, you're willing, you're trying desperately to own it. Isn't that fascinating? So you're saying, Wait, maybe I'm going to ask this because I could do that.

[00:18:33] I could apologize. I could take ownership of this. And then maybe everything will be better. But no, you're you're acting the way you're doing, you're acting the way you're acting in reaction to not feeling heard, not feeling understood from the gaslighting. And I will say this every episode I can. But if you put yourself in another relationship where you feel heard and seen and understood and you're not continually fixed or judged, would you thrive or would you still just walk in and start yelling at your husband? I don't think so. Or or wife, you know, depending on the situation. So that was a big, long ramble. I was about to say, where was I going with that? But I remember gaslighting as I am going to go through these four different types of gaslighting. I want to I want you to listen to this with the this is the if I am doing it, it's most likely one of these more. I'll just call it innocent types or there's a reason behind it. It's not done to confuse or push away the blame. It's done because you don't feel heard. So first type unconscious gaslighting, the person is totally unaware that they're engaging in it. In fact, they perceive that they're being very reasonable in their interactions because they don't have any clue about the impact of what they were doing, and they might even lack the capacity or the willingness to question their own viewpoint and consideration of another's viewpoint.

[00:19:42] Here's what this can look like the I don't get it, the I don't get it act. So in the example they give is over the course of a week, this person said I had explained and explained the company's vision to my colleague so many times. They said I teach English as a second language for a living, so I'm intimately familiar with how to break down concepts. And reword definitions and give examples. And this was a totally different issue, and my colleague continued to claim confusion over and over again. So when somebody says that they're confused and they make no effort to dove into why, they're confused and they continually put the onus on you to explain it, it not only becomes tedious, but it has you starting to question what you're saying. So this person said they began to wonder, You know, how is that I'm not getting through or how is it that he's not understanding the ideas that I'm explaining? And then it hit me he didn't want to understand, but likely didn't even know that. So someone who truly wants to understand, they make efforts in that direction. And this is where I say boy, instead of judgment again, try curiosity. And and and I do a lot of couples work my magnetic marriage couples course, and this is not trying to plug this, but is starting up in a few weeks.

[00:20:44] And so I teach what I just love these four pillars of a connected conversation. But the goal is to be heard, to be heard is to be healed. And so oftentimes, you know when if I don't understand you, but I desperately want to and I'm curious and I just I'm struggling to understand you, then there are ways to frame that communication. My four pillars of assuming good intentions can't put out the message You're wrong questions before comments and then don't go into your bunker. Stay present. I've done a lot of those episodes on the virtual couch, but there is a framework to make that happen. But if someone truly does not want to understand, then they're not going to put in that effort, and that can be so frustrating. They also give this example, it says, coexisting in a parallel universe along with ignoring my words. My colleague addressed issues that he claimed I had raised. He said it's as though I had mentioned ice cream, and his response was well, when we talked about cheesecake. And he said, as you could imagine, this was so baffling. You know, what was he addressing or who was he addressing? Was even addressing me if he had added words and like, you know, this raised a different issue for me. This other issue, he said, then I would have understood. But instead he would say things like, you know, your point about X again.

[00:21:49] So if he's saying, you know what you were saying about cheesecake and you're and you're like, I never said cheesecake. But when they said that when they referred back to their messages to see if they had talked about cheesecake and it had never been raised, they began to wonder if we were just existing in this strange and parallel universe with alternate forms of ourselves. And he said, I truly believe, however, that he thought I had raised those points about cheesecake, which all the more baffling. The second type of gaslighting is an awareness that something's off. And in this case, the author said that they believe the Gaslighter senses that something isn't working, but they're still not aware of what that impact is on the gas lady. So likely the gas lighters had previous experiences similar to this one, and they've come to the feel this uneasiness around the interaction. But they still just kind of keep moving on ahead, because why would they change the approach? If you really do think that you're right to engage as you've been doing and still don't fully understand why people aren't interested in engaging? So here's what that can look like. They call it the flood of words. So one person said that they would send a short message to their colleague, only to receive a deluge in response. So one sentence would receive a multi paragraph response. And it was overwhelming, and it had the effect of totally wiping out anything that they had said.

[00:22:55] And so, he says, I understand some people are verbose while others are more succinct. This woman, though, said she was married to a man who is verbose, so she's well versed in this flood of words. And at the same time, she said she would continually wonder, Where does this come from? You know, what was I even asking? I wasn't asking that and so on. And she said I felt that my reality was quivering. How did what I wrote necessitate a response that not only didn't acknowledge my words, but it included a conversation I had never started and I was massively overwhelmed in quantity. And furthermore, the flood of words did not seem to be my colleague's attempt to understand me or have an interchange. Instead, he created a wall of explanation from his point of view or an endless tide of justification to push back and obliterate what he had likely perceived as a challenge. And I have to tell you, when I look at my own destinies of narcissism and I'm not kidding around, I mean, that's part of why I'm just so fascinated by this work. And I mean, I'm good with that flood of words, and I type fast. And I know that there have been times where I'd probably overwhelm my wife, where I wasn't even aware that I was just jumping into the world of justification and probably not even answering the question.

[00:23:57] So that's one to really, you know, to be aware of. The third is intentional, and here's where things start to get a little bit interesting, more of a more aware of an impact, but no intent to seriously harm. So this is a person who has more awareness than the gas is in situations one and two. They know what they're doing is harmful, but they would never describe themselves as gaslighting, because that's that's left for the malevolent, malevolent individuals, right? They're not trying to hurt somebody or drive them crazy, but they are into power struggles and they're so into winning. And here's what that can look like stonewalling. Refusing to answer what's said Oh my gosh, this one's common. If you are in a relationship with a narcissist, I would imagine that you will ask a question. They won't answer that one. Then they'll answer, Ask a question of you. You're the nice person. You respond, assuming that, then they'll respond back to your question and they don't. And then if you say, did you see my text, then you're not going to get it. Yeah, you know what? I didn't really have a good answer. You're going to get. No, I never saw it. But then why did you respond to the other one? You know, again, they're not going to take ownership, which is so frustrating. Or they're going to then say, yeah, I saw your text. I don't know how I'm supposed to answer that.

[00:25:02] That's ridiculous. So stonewalling, refusing to answer what's been said in this article. The person said, In fact, my colleague not only did that, he simply acted as though what I had said never existed. Messages would be exchanged. And if I was left wondering if he'd actually read my words, have my message gone through? I was certain I had. But why was he so oblivious to what I had said? How come every word made little to no impact is that my words disappeared into the ether, never to be acknowledged again. When I'm working with people and we're starting to talk about boundaries, especially when we end up getting into separation or divorce. Boy, this one comes out even more. You know, when we're talking about, Hey, how about that child support or you want to split 50 50 on this dental bill? No response, you know, but when then they say, I need to drop the kids off early? You know, then. And then again, the kind person is responding. So in that one, and it can feel like you're being so mean or rude, which is hard for the nice person. But I often say, here's where the boundary is that I'm going to copy and paste the message until you answer it. And then finally, you will get the answer. But the nice person again, trying to give that that nurses the benefit of the doubt is often thinking, Oh, maybe, maybe I ask the question wrong.

[00:26:08] Maybe that was rude of me. Maybe he didn't see it. But know start to trust your gut and start to start to listen to yourself. You listen to your instincts a little bit more. Also, in that intentional, more aware of an impact version of gaslighting, it's called whiplash communication. So he says the final straw came in one of our last communications, and it's when communication went from I'm upset to you don't have to respond to I'm betrayed and you said you would, but it goes all the way to you don't have to. And by the end of the message, this person was left wondering if they should even respond. Had they done something wrong, had they inadvertently impacted this person in a negative way, but they didn't need to say anything. So on the one hand, they say, I think the gaslighter in this situation is likely confused by what they're feeling. And on the other hand, it's not their first rodeo. They've done this before knowing that others end up hurt or angry or unsettled by their actions. So sometimes when the gas lady doesn't understand, the Gaslighter simply tells them, You just don't get it. You know what? Don't even worry about it. You don't have to respond. And in this person's case, they said it was true. The paradoxical pieces didn't make sense when you put everything into a cohesive whole, meaning that the I don't know how many times we process this with someone in session yesterday where you know, they they were just saying, You know what, I don't even want to continue to have this conversation.

[00:27:19] It's obvious that you don't understand me, you don't hear me. And so don't even I don't even want you to respond. So what are they trying to do? They're still trying to control the situation by telling you, you're the one that doesn't get it, even though you're actually the one that gets it. And they just are having a hard time taking ownership or or giving an answer that doesn't paint them in a bad light. The last one is is a bad one, the malicious with intent to desired, with desire to harm textbook gaslighting. Stephanie Psaki's has an article where she outlines the warning signs, blatant lies, denial, manipulation and wearing the gaslighting down, mismatching actions and words lining others against you. Weaponizing confusion, projecting all of those gathering the army. This one I talked about a little bit before the most malicious piece that they, this person experience with their colleague. He had other people look at the project and informed me that they thought that it was fine. So he said he had to step away if he was going to get the if the other person, if the narcissist was going to gather the masses against this person and continue to prove their point against mine, that actually the company's point, where were they to go with it? Nowhere.

[00:28:24] One person against an army is useless, and it certainly had them questioning what they were proposing. And that one's the one where and I can give so many examples of and I didn't even recognize this was a trait of narcissism until I was well into my practice where it would just be those situations that just just felt odd. They hit different, as the kids say. So all of a sudden I would have, let's say, a wife on my couch. And then the husband said, You know, I was talking with your with your brother and my my my sister in law. And, you know, my sister and even my physician, I was talking with him and we all kind of think you're depressed, like it was a real conversation. And and the the narcissist, the Gaslighter thinks that they've gathered this army. So now that they can, it's even more reason to prove that their their spouse is crazy. But in reality, it's like, really you, you talk to all those people. And that one became one of the easiest ones to work with. To set a boundary with is then I would often say, You know what that sounds like? That's really hard for the, you know, your wife there to hear that you would talk to all these other people. So maybe what we should do is, let's see. Let's put a group text together, and let's just address that with everybody.

[00:29:29] You know, I'm more than happy to get everybody on the same page. And what would happen? I mean, and I don't like using all or nothing statements, but I will say always, always the gas lady, the narcissist or the gaslighter. The narcissist would say, No, you know, I don't want to bring them into it. You know what? That's I don't want to do that. And I would see that in my session. So often I would get a text from one person and they would say, Hey, get, I'm going with the wife is the the husband is the narcissist in this scenario, the one I'm thinking of in particular. Where the wife says, Hey, did you really say that this was probably more of my fault, but that that you were afraid to tell me directly? I'm like, No, no, no, we're putting a stop to this right now. So then whenever we'd have the next session, it's like, Hey, can you just sound like there's some confusion there? So can you just send me the group text if you, you know, if the husband in the scenario feels inclined to share something that he feels that I said about the wife in a session. First of all, it's kind of not the way it works. And so let's just do a group text and then surprisingly, things that I were that I was saying about the the the victim, the spouse here, they disappeared because now the narcissist knew that they couldn't do that anymore.

[00:30:42] That was a good example of setting a nice, healthy boundary. But but gaslighting is it's so much more prevalent than what we think it is. And this article kind of sums up by saying, you know, sometimes it occurs as these microaggressions from people who don't even know they're doing it. I would imagine most people are guilty of this. I've been guilty of that. Sometimes we know something's off, but we and we still pursue a little line of inquiry and then things end up taking a turn for the worse and we can start. We just left feeling like our reality is just starting to quiver. They say in this article like like a minor earthquake. And she said until in her own case, it wasn't until somebody else pointed it out that they began to see it. And with that new perspective, they were able to get a huge sigh of relief and understand, you know, they said the furniture of my home had never been rearranged. Somebody was just trying to make me feel like it had been. And this is where I have so, so many examples of this. I honestly have. I think it's 40 50 pages over the years of gasoline and examples. And in this podcast, I want to start to get to those so people will understand that they're not crazy. So if you are talking about, you know, if you're aware you're the nice, kind person that's waking up to narcissism and you're telling, you know, you're saying, OK, but no.

[00:31:47] Sometimes I do feel like maybe I'm doing the gaslighting. Know what you're trying to do is make sense of things and even explain yourself or point out these errors of what you're seeing in front of you. And then when it's turned back around on you and you are the one feeling crazy, it can feel like, well, I guess I'm trying to convince him that he's wrong. And maybe I'm not. No, you. We got to get you back to trust in your gut and and being able to get above that, that gaslighting the anxiety that comes with that. You know, I go back to the episode that I talked about the things you can do in these interactions. You got to raise your emotional baseline that self-care can get your PhD in gaslighting. You need to understand when it's happening and then be able to step back and just look at it. Talk about this on an episode. I think maybe last time to about those popcorn moments, you be able to sit back and watch the show and not get emotionally invested or involved when you know, Oh, this is gaslighting. Yeah, I never said that. Or no, he actually did do that. And so I'm not going to engage. And that's when you're going to start to watch the person go through a variety of emotions because they're trying to find that right button to push, to get you to then engage.

[00:32:51] So then it will not be about them. It will now be about the argument or the confusion, or it's about you and your reaction. It's not so covered a lot of ground. We're going to do probably a Q&A next week because I have so many cues, so I need to give some A's. So if you have some more cues, send them in through the contact form on Tony or ORBCOMM. Please keep, you know, sharing your examples in your AHA moments and your awareness because it's helping so many people as you do that. And I can't lie. I'm so grateful for the reviews. I actually just read through them last night to my wife, I was almost I was getting a little bit teary eyed because there's so many nice things said there. And and I hate being that guy that's saying so like, you subscribe all that stuff. But it really, I've been shocked at the download numbers and the amount of ground this podcast is covering because people need all the tools. I have zero scarcity mindset when it comes to this podcast. I want you to get all the podcasts, all the information, all the YouTube videos, because it takes all that to help you. I'm going to be cheesy now to help you wake up to narcissism. All right. Have an amazing weekend, and we'll talk to you next week.

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