Survival Tips For Engaging w/the Narcissist

Posted by tonyoverbay

Tony discusses 5 survival strategies to help you find solid ground when trying to communicate with a narcissist, or someone expressing narcissistic traits or tendencies.

Also, have you been told that you won't let things go, that you like to fight, or that you're not as easy to get along with as you used to be by the narcissist in your life? If so, you may be doing better than you think! Please submit your questions as well as your gaslighting examples through the contact form at

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[00:00:00] Hey, everybody, welcome to the first episode of Waking Up the Narcissism. I'm your host, Tony, over me. And if you have seen the new Ryan Reynolds movie free guy and this is not a movie review podcast, I promise. But there toward the end, there's this character named Dude, he's this big giant character that was not completed. He hasn't been finished. He hasn't been programed by his computer programmers completely. And so at one point, he just says catchphrase. And that's the place where they have forgotten or they haven't had time to put the catchphrase in yet. And I feel like right now I need to just say intro music because there's very talented individual who is creating some intro music for me right now. So imagine, if you will, episode one waking up to narcissism and there's some very good theme music or intro music coming on right now. So that will that will be here eventually. But for now, I'm just happy to be with you. I've been waiting to record this podcast for so long. I've literally been meaning to do this for over a year now. And if you have followed me on my main podcast, The Virtual Couch, there are a lot of episodes where I do talk about narcissism. And as I mentioned in the trailer, if you listen to the trailer for this waking up the Narcissism podcast, then you may have heard that those any episode that I have anything to do or say with narcissism, it gets thousands and thousands of more downloads than most.

[00:01:18] So it is really something that I'm passionate about. It's something that I'm currently working on a book and online program, all of those wonderful things. But it's something that I see in my practice every day, literally every day. I have a private group for women who are in relationships with narcissistic men, and I didn't mention that in the trailer. But if you're here right now and you're listening and you are interested in that, just head over to my website, Tony over You can shoot me an email through the contact form there and it goes directly to me and I can give you more information about that. But let's get to the show today. I really am hoping that I can just be one of many resources that you turn to if you're just starting to learn more about narcissism. If you're in the thick of a long relationship with somebody that you believe either has narcissistic tendencies or maybe even full blown narcissistic personality disorder, or have you tried to help a friend or a loved one who might be in the aforementioned relationship? Because you need all the information that you can get, you need all the data that you can get because when you're working with an emotionally abusive person, you need all of the information to be able to get your bearings right to get your feet underneath you.

[00:02:22] So please know that I don't claim to know everything about the narcissist, but I hope they're going to be able to share a lot of information that I see in my practice and that I've seen over the last 15 years, plus of being a therapist working with over a thousand couples and then just seeing that some of those, some of those couples, a lot of those couples, something just doesn't seem right. Something hits different, as the kids say. And and that was what got me started looking really at personality disorders. And they become so predictable that it does break my heart at times for people who are in those relationships that think that that's a normal relationship. But anyway, I could go on and on about that. But I did want to talk a little bit more about why this podcast started and give you some tips right out of the gate. I started noticing the more couples that I was seeing, that there was just something off. There was something different about certain people. And and I started noticing that the things that were different were things that typically fell into the diagnostic criteria of narcissism. And we're going to talk so much about this in the coming episodes about subtypes of narcissism that narcissism isn't just this grandiose, malicious, malignant type of individual that there can be a lot of the subtypes. There's covert and overt types of narcissism.

[00:03:29] So there's the narcissist that if you really take a look at what you would see it, say that if they were being watched by a camera, for example, that's that overt behavior. But then the cover can be can be even worse at times. The cover can be the things that you don't see, and it can be the passive aggressive comments really going big on gaslighting pitting you against other people. There are a lot of terms in narcissism sequestering some of those kind of things where you just don't really feel like you have a support system or you certainly don't feel like reaching out and talking to people because because either they aren't going to understand or the narcissist in your life is going to make you pay, are going to make you really feel bad about that. But the more I started to see these patterns, I started to recognize that if somebody googles what to do if I am in a narcissistic relationship, most of the paragraphs that you'll find it, it's as if it says run. You don't even get through the end of the paragraph and it says, Hey, just go, just go right now. But I know as a therapist, it isn't that easy. It's never that easy, and people don't do that because they have so much time and energy invested into that relationship, where typically people are coming to me and they are presenting the relationship even, or they're narcissistic spouse and saying, but there's good.

[00:04:41] There's times where things are OK or I have too much invested in this or I want to protect the kids or I can't do it financially. And so I realized that as much as I would love to just help that person get out of that situation because I can't even fathom or imagine what that's like to have been in a relationship where you didn't feel known and you didn't feel. Scene, you felt crazy, you felt gaslit, and you felt like there was no hope that that would be so hard. But I wanted to try and help those people, so I started to look at it like, All right, if the person really does say that they want to try and stay or they want to know, how do I learn to communicate better that as again, and I'll try to stop saying, is a therapist? But as a therapist, I'm going to meet my client where they're at. Now, I may have some pretty strong opinions about where that relationship is heading, but I got to meet the client where they're at. So what that lead to was I came up with five things five. And this is where I realize I don't have any cool acronyms. I need to find one or get some, and I don't even have a very cool catchphrase here. But if I'm just going to refer right now, call them my five rules of interacting with a narcissist, my first and foremost, and we're going to cover each one of these in future episodes.

[00:05:51] We're going to go into so much detail on this, but my first one is to raise your emotional baseline, meaning self-care. And I've done a lot around this concept of the emotional baseline. If you look at my virtual couch podcast, you can find episodes where I talk about the emotional baseline because in all honesty, it's a concept that I developed well over a decade ago. So your emotional baseline, in a quick nutshell, just means that we all have so many things coming at us on a day to day basis. And if our baseline, if our emotional baseline is high, if we are feeling like we are, we're just grooving. We're vibe and we feel like our maybe our health good or relationships good or jobs good or and we just feel pretty good about the day about ourselves that when we are presented with information, then we're going to respond in a certain way. We're going to be pretty positive. We're going to be more of a I can do this kind of an attitude. But over time, the more that we are emotionally worn down, maybe physically worn down, if we're sick, spiritually worn down. If you don't like your job, if you feel like you aren't connected in your parenting or your marriage or all of these things can affect what I call your emotional baseline, and it can put your your baseline low.

[00:06:56] And so these same situations, these same questions, the same problems that we deal with every day are going to present themselves, and you are going to make a better decision when your emotional baseline is high and how do you get at high self care? And it can be even in the most simple of ways, even if it is something where you feel like I can't put my needs first at all, that I need to put everyone else's needs first, because there's a big chance that if you are in a relationship like this, you are what I like to refer to as a very pathologically kind person. You really literally look for the good and everyone and anyone. So oftentimes it's really hard to put your needs first. So re raising your emotional baseline, that's absolutely necessary. Self-care is not selfish, and too often somebody who is again in a relationship with a narcissist neglected their self-care. But it's absolutely necessary. So that's one of the first things that that I prescribe. The second one and this one is, I guess, it's about as clever as I think I get here to get your Ph.D. in gaslighting. And simply put, gaslighting is a type of manipulation where the manipulator and in this case, the narcissist is trying to get somebody or a group of people to question their own memory, their perception, their reality.

[00:08:05] And over time, gaslighting can have extremely negative effects. And I'm probably going to dump a lot of information here in episode one just to show you that we are going to cover so much ground in this waking up to narcissism podcast to the point that I hope that you've already hit subscribe. I hope that you're going to share this wherever you like to share things, whether it's with people or social media or that sort of thing. But one study showed that in emotionally abusive and manipulative relationships over time, brain scans of the abuse show an enlarged amygdala. And what that is is that's your fight, flight or freeze portion of the brain and a shrunken hippocampus, and that is the area of the brain associated with short term memory. So it's pretty amazing and wild to see that gaslighting is not just something that can make someone feel crazy, but it's something that can literally change the chemistry or affect the makeup of your brain. Now the good news is as you start to get out of the gaslighting situations or become more aware of them, or don't necessarily fall prey or beat yourself up that you can regain, your hippocampus can grow, your amygdala can shrink. And that's part of the reason why it is so important to understand what you're working with. So, number one, raise your emotional baseline number to get your Ph.D. in gaslighting. And number three, disengage from unproductive conversation.

[00:09:22] So when you recognize gaslighting is occurring, or that the narcissist is not taking ownership or accountability of their actions because we're going to learn from as we get to know each other more that that that is simply something that cannot happen, that they cannot take ownership or accountability of their actions or if they do, if they finally say, You know what? I think you're right. Now we got to say, OK, what's the angle? We'll talk about that more and a little bit here. But when you recognize that that gaslighting is occurring or that the narcissist again isn't taking ownership of their actions, it's time to drop the rope in the tug of war in the conversation. It's time to stop trying to convince the person that they're wrong or that you're not crazy because the conversation is not going to. You resolved in a satisfactory way, and I feel like that's a big moment when you can accept that. And a lot of that is going to come after you have your emotional baseline high and you get your Ph.D. in gaslighting. So the number three disengage from these unproductive conversations. Number four, you learn to set healthy boundaries. So using the gaslighting example, when you recognize gaslighting, not only do you disengage, but you let the person know or you resolve in your own mind to leave the situation and then do your best to be consistent with that behavior. So if you've set a boundary that you're not going to keep talking about finances with an emotionally abusive co-parent, then when they bring it up again, when they say again, I can't believe that you're taking this money from me or I feel like I'm the one that's always buying them things and you never are, even though, you know, that's absolutely not the case.

[00:10:46] Then when they bring that up, either you don't respond or you let them know via a nice copied and pasted response. The same thing, something like I've already expressed to you that I will not be having a conversation about finances outside of our attorney's office. So what you learn is that these healthy boundaries because and oh, I cannot wait to talk about an episode on boundaries, but when you set a boundary with a narcissist, they look at that as a challenge. So they're going to keep pushing and pushing and pushing. And I feel like that's where a lot of people feel, especially when they've been in those relationships where they feel like, what am I supposed to do? I can't just keep. I just get. I get so exhausted of trying to hold this boundary, but that is exactly what we're going to learn how to do. So learning to set healthy boundaries is the fourth rule that I have an engaging or interacting with a narcissist. And the fifth one and this one is the one that really did come along last, and it's probably the most important rule.

[00:11:37] But you can see why these other four need to be in place, that you have to have self-care, you have to have your emotional baseline high and you have to understand what gaslighting really is, what it looks like. And then in doing so, you're able to, number three, disengage from the unproductive conversations, which leads to no for learning to set healthy boundaries. But number five, stop trying to find the right thing to say. Realize that there is nothing that you can say or do that will cause the narcissists to have that aha moment or an epiphany that will get them to change. And it sounds harsh. It really does. Especially because most likely if you're hearing this, you're a very kind person. But it does sound harsh. But those who are in relationships or who have been in relationships with narcissistic people know all too well that as they begin to step away from the relationship, that even when the narcissists appear to quote get it, it's usually only temporary, or it's simply to get out of the conversation that they don't feel that they have control over, or if there's an angle that will come to light either in the moment or at a later date. And let me give you an example of that. I once had a client who who was a professional photographer, and she had asked her husband about getting upgraded lens for years to help with her profession and has been continually either ignored her or told her they didn't have the money, even though she was very aware of the finances and knew that they could afford it as he would continue to buy anything that he wanted to buy.

[00:12:59] So one day he did approach her, and he said he had found the money in the budget and he was going to get a new lens and she was ecstatic thinking, OK, he finally gets it. He heard me. This is so exciting that he understands, but then I think it was within in a week. Then he purchased the I believe it was about a $70,000 truck, so there was the angle. So those five things are some of the things that it's a basis or maybe a framework they're going to be working from in so many different episodes and we'll go into these and so much more detail. But again, raising your emotional baseline self-care is not selfish and number two get your Ph.D. in gaslighting. And this is where I talk about at the beginning of this episode that there is there's a lot of good information out there on things like gaslighting or what to do. And I just feel like if you are listening to somebody that has experience and working with a narcissist or who has been in a relationship with a narcissist, then for the most part, I feel like you can.

[00:13:50] You can. You can trust that information that you're getting because you'll start to see that the information is so consistent. And that is one of the things that as somebody who sits in my chair each and every day, it really does become a matter of there certain people, and it's based off of their own abandonment and insecurities and rejection as a child. And and we're going to talk about that too. Down the road, but that causes them to be in this position where they literally cannot take ownership or accountability or express empathy because to them, it's a factory setting because of their nature and nurture. Their growing up abandoned gaslighting is a childhood defense mechanism. Truly, if they are to express that something is their fault, that literally feels like death to them. And there's so much distance between what your version of reality is and what their version of reality is that unfortunately, too often people that are in the relationships with the narcissist are still trying to process things through their own lens. So if you are saying to yourself, they must feel really bad. And so that makes me feel bad for them. And it sounds harsh for someone in my chair to say this, but they don't have that same feeling that you do. Now they have a different set of feelings. But time and time again, the data shows the anecdotal and the research data shows that that empathy, that compassion, that kindness is there.

[00:15:18] There's there's an immediate need for control and manipulation. And so when they lose that, then that's where the gaslighting comes in. And then when you stand up to them, when you try to change the pattern, it isn't like they finally have this breakthrough moment. No, they actually find more and more ways to double down on the need for control. And not that I necessarily want to have bits or these segments of the podcast, but I feel like we may evolve into that because I do keep a tab open on my on my iPad as I'm taking notes throughout the week when I'm working with either my women's group of in relationships with narcissistic men or when I'm working with couples or working with an individual who's trying to deal with or get out of one of these relationships. But I have a tab called Narcissism and I take notes throughout the week. So part of me does want to do a this week in narcissism. And so we're going to talk a little bit today about about a narcissistic apology, which in essence is a hollow apology. But as we get into that, there were a couple of aha moments from a client that I thought were so fascinating, and she was sharing a couple of things that you have probably heard if you're listening or interested in this podcast or this topic. The first one is this woman's husband continually said over the last years, probably more than a decade, he used to be a nice person and to a nice person, that is a button to press that it's going to really sting.

[00:16:38] It's going to really hit deep because the client, my client, that's all she really is at her core is wants to be seen as a nice person, and it is her kindness again, her pathological kindness that puts her in a position for this emotionally abusive, narcissistic, manipulative person to take advantage. So when he says You used to be a nice person, we were doing a little bit more around that and she realizes that OK, no, she is still nice, but she is no longer acquiescing. She's no longer giving in to everything that he says where in the past when she would give in to what he says in order to keep the peace, in order to keep him calm in order to buffer from the children that then he just felt OK. She's being nice because she agrees with me. But the you used to be a nice person. Now she's still being nice. But what she is doing now is she's saying, I'm starting to challenge you, and she's starting to say, Hey, I have my own opinion. And so that brings up conflict in the relationship now as a marriage therapist. Conflicts are pretty normal part of a relationship, but there's a healthy way to deal with conflict in an unhealthy way in the unhealthy way is a controlling nature.

[00:17:46] And in my virtual couch podcast, I say often that in adult relationships you can have love or you can have control, but not both. They don't coexist. So you used to be a nice person. Nope. She's still a nice person, but she's now starting to express that she has her own opinions, and that's OK. As a matter of fact, that's part of being in a relationship, and we'll talk about that here in a second. The second thing from this week in narcissism is where he was saying, You used to let things go. Now you don't let things go. So what do you feel like? That one probably means that you don't let things go is that she's starting to set boundaries. And so she was so used to just letting things go, meaning what's the point? It doesn't matter. Nothing's going to change. So I'm not even going to. I'm not even going to put up a defense. I was going to say a fight, but not even a defense. And so in that scenario, the more that she starts to speak her mind, or the more that she starts to disagree, or the more that she starts to set these boundaries. Now, all of a sudden, she becomes not nice and she becomes someone who wants to fight more or just doesn't want to let things go. So if you're hearing this and that really resonates, then I want you to to feel some comfort in knowing that you are still the nice person and that if you are starting to hear those things, that that really is gaslighting.

[00:19:04] And it's a form of control and manipulation that the narcissist does or uses so that they can regain that, that power imbalance where they can have this one up position. So if you go back through these five things that I mentioned earlier again, if you are starting to be more confident in raising your emotional baseline, it is going to feel threatening to the narcissist. And if you are going to start recognizing gaslighting and then starting to say, Hey, that's not the case or standing up for yourself, then it is going to feel like all of the sudden you just want to pick a fight. And if you are going to start disengaging from an unproductive conversations, then it's going to seem like you are no longer willing to put in the time to be in the relationship when in reality, you're starting to realize that this isn't healthy. It's unproductive. And when you learn to set healthy boundaries, now we're starting to get into this world of again, you're not only not being nice, but you aren't letting things go because you're starting to stand up for yourself. And that's a good thing. And when you finally stop trying to cause the narcissist to have the AHA moment or the epiphany, then you are no longer acquiescing or then just agreeing and saying that he's right.

[00:20:09] So all of these things are going to bring some contention into the relationship, and we're so afraid of contention. We really are. And in my marriage therapy, I reframe it a little differently than that is that we're so afraid of tension. We're so afraid of contention that we avoid tension altogether because in a healthy relationship, tension is where the growth can occur and an unhealthy relationship. We if there's tension, it quickly escalates the contention. And so we try to avoid it at all costs because in a healthy relationship, we really are two completely separate, interdependent individuals that are just going about our lives, that we all have our own unique talents and gifts and abilities. And so it only makes sense that as we are going through life that we have, each of us has her own talents and strengths. And so when a healthy relationship, what does that build in the relationship? It builds curiosity and it builds a relationship of Tell me more about that or I want to learn more about my spouse. Not a relationship of I can't believe you're saying that. You know what that means to me, and I will give the I'll give you the fact that we don't naturally come by this, "Tell me more" of a mentality when it comes to couples communication because we are bringing our own abandonment or rejection or attachment wounds into a relationship.

[00:21:27] And this is where I might just say, Hey, hop on over to the Virtual Couch podcast and look for some of the episodes that I have on differentiation or on being interdependent, not codependent, because there's a lot of work that we can do there, and we'll eventually bring some of that over here into the Waking Up the Narcissism podcast as well. But I think going to leave things there for today, I'm going to try to keep these episodes a little bit shorter than my other podcast, my virtual Couch podcast. But so today I wanted to give you just a bit of an overview of those five things that you can do to start to feel a little bit more confident or to have a little bit more of a structure to just take a look at your relationship. And if you are in a position where when you try to engage in self-care, if that is met with it, OK, how did how do you think that affects me by your spouse? Then that's not normal. I'm going to use the word normal a lot, and I understand that even in my own profession, what is normal? But I'm I started, Let me be where you say healthy that I know that if my wife wants to exercise, if she wants to read, if she wants to take a course, if she wants to go out and have some downtime or time with friends, that that is something that I want her to engage in self-care because that's going to put her in a better position to be a better mom, a better person, a better wife, a better someone who works in her church or whatever.

[00:22:47] That looks like that we want to encourage that self-care. And the Ph.D. in gaslighting in a healthy way will say a healthy relationship. If I were to bring a concept to the table like gaslighting, if I said, Hey, I read about this, I heard about this and I worry about, I worry that this is what's happening in our relationship. Again, healthy relationship. Hopefully your spouse will say, Oh my gosh, tell me more. Look at it with curiosity and say, All right, help me understand. Show me my blind spots. Why do you feel like that's happening? And let's have a conversation about it not saying that's ridiculous. And if I read the article and gaslighting or listen to the podcast and gaslighting as a matter of fact, you know what? You do that to me. And boy, I am going to end up telling some stories here, for sure. But one of the first episodes I ever did on gaslighting, and I cannot make this up. Two of my clients within the same day had sent me within just a couple of hours a text that said that they had sent the episode about gaslighting to their narcissistic husbands.

[00:23:44] And both of the husbands, again within about a two hour period, apparently listened to the episode and then sent back such similar comments that said, OK, I can't believe you sent this to me. And as a matter of fact, when I listened to it, it really makes me understand that's what you do to me, and we're going to talk about that boy, the narcissistic mimicking or the narcissistic parroting or copying. It's just it's phenomenal. So when somebody grows up and they don't have a lot of empathy and then an expression or an emotion is shared with them, if a spouse says, you know what, I really feel like this is emotional abuse, then now to the narcissist, it's hey, thanks for handed me that button to push. As a matter of fact, I'm that sounds interesting, so I'm going to use this on you. And in fact, you want you emotionally abuse me. And so if you share, Hey, I feel like you gaslight me, then I can almost guarantee you're going to get back. And you know what? I think you're gaslighting me, which it just is. But these are the things that become so predictable. Today, we'll end it with these five rules of interacting with narcissists as well. A little bit of that bonus material of, Hey, guess what, you are not and not letting things go, and you are not now just trying to pick a fight or being mean.

[00:24:53] You are starting to stand up for yourself. You're starting to recognize that it's OK to have your own opinion. And there's I mentioned this briefly earlier, but there's a concept in marriage and my marriage therapy over on my virtual couch podcast called Differentiation. And I highly encourage you to go find to find an episode on differentiation. I think I did one just a month or two ago. But differentiation is where one person ends. The other begins. And so we are so enmeshed and codependent in our relationships just by nature. And I'm not even I'm going to give us a pass on that initially, because when we get into relationships, we're still trying to sort out the honeymoon phase. We're worried that if our spouses who we truly are and that they may not really care for us or like us, and that's normal, that's some of our own childhood abandonment and attachment things that we bring forth into relationships. But as we grow and relationship, then we want to become interdependent, not codependent. We want to recognize that we're two individuals that are going through life in our very own way, that we have our own nature and nurture and birth order and DNA and abandonment and rejection. And we have all of those things that are unique to us as an individual. So then naturally, as we go through life with another individual, they're going to have all those experiences as well.

[00:26:05] So as we become differentiated, as we become our own individual and as we become interdependent, not codependent, that there will be that curiosity now. One of the things that also comes as you differentiate from a spouse or as you differentiate from a person or differentiate from even an institution, a work, a church or any of those things is you start to really stand and have your own opinion, then it is important to recognize you're going to deal with some invalidation because the more that you become interdependent and differentiated and start to say, here's how I feel, you're going to get some pushback, but that's OK, because that's that tension I was talking about earlier, and we're so afraid that it's going to escalate to continue. And that we typically avoid tension altogether. But once you start to learn to express yourself and once you learn how to stay in the Hey, this is my experience and differentiation is truly being able to maintain a connection with somebody, but without having to to get in there into the weeds and start to to try to break down their point or truly defend yours. Your experience is your experience. But if you were in a relationship with someone or an institution that's more controlling, then you're going to get that. I disagree. I think you're wrong. As a matter of fact, I think you're really wrong. As a matter of fact, I can't believe you're doing this or saying this.

[00:27:17] You know how that affects me. But over time from a differentiated place, then then you have more of this. This feeling of, Hey, that would be hard. I'm sorry that you feel that way about my experience, but this is my experience. And the more that you learn to stand in that calm, confident energy, that calm confidence self, the more you will feel confident and the more your emotional baseline will raise, and the more you'll find yourself in a position to be able to help not only yourself, but those around you. Whether it's your kids, whether it's other people in your flock, in your troop, in your tribe. And that ultimately is the goal. One of the biggest goals that I have in this entire podcast is being able to help you recognize these things, recognize this emotional abuse, recognize whether it can be. It can even be in physical sexual abuse, emotional abuse, financial abuse, spiritual abuse. All of these tools are used by the narcissist or the narcissistic person, the narcissistic company, the narcissistic institution. Because I really do want to help you wake up to this narcissism and realize that there's a new day ahead. And as you wake up to these new facts, this new information, this new data that now you have this entire experience ahead of you. That with this new knowledge, you can start to grow and you can start to learn to forgive yourself and to be more present and to know that as you do so that there really is hope.

[00:28:35] And as scary and as alone as you may feel that I have worked with so many people that have made it through to the other side of this narcissistic relationships are narcissistic abuse and then realize that there was a whole world there that they had not seen before. And that can be difficult. They can be hard. But we'll get there, too. We'll talk about what to do when you start to feel those those familiar thoughts of man, I wish I would have known this sooner. Or what could life look like I had looked like earlier if I would have been aware of this, or if I would have had the tools or the courage to get out of these unhealthy relationships. And that's hard, but it doesn't do us good. It's easy to or it's good to acknowledge those feelings or thoughts because you're human. But then what do you do with them? We can start to learn how to bring those thoughts along with us, as now you start to find a true sense of purpose. And as you start to increase your value, your sense of worth. And now you're going to put yourself in a position to be there to be able to lift those up around you. Why not put yourself in a position to let your light shine so that you can't help others? All right.

[00:29:36] Have an amazing week. If you have questions, please send them through my website. Tony And I'm going to do a lot of answering questions. I want your gaslighting examples. I probably have 50 or 60 pages of those. We'll go over those as well. But I want this podcast to be unique and different. I want to break down texts, I want to break down emails, I want to break down situations and talk about what is again, healthy or unhealthy, normal or not normal, and how you apply these five things that we talked about today in your life. We'll have guests coming on. We're going to cover all of the good traits or classic things about narcissism from gaslighting. Hey, look at this. What I even did today. I talked about a narcissistic apology. I didn't even talk about it. So I will not be titling this episode anything to do with the narcissistic apology, and we're going to talk about that. We'll talk about that down the road, but hopefully you've got a good introduction to where this podcast going. I cannot wait to hear from you and just trust me waking up the narcissism. You're going to wake up to this and that there's some beautiful days ahead. I promise you that, and we'll see you next time on the podcast and quick note to self. I think I need some closing music as well. All right, we'll see you next time.

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