Tony shares 8 mental health lessons learned from a Christmas spent at Disneyland. 1) You’ll never really know something until you experience it. 2) Churros provide an immediate but temporary dopamine dump. 3) How to come back to the present moment, over and over again. 4) How easy it can be to find yourself turning to unhealthy coping mechanisms when triggered suddenly. 5) What it looks like to turn to a value-based activity or goal when feeling down, flat, off, or all of the above. 6) Radical acceptance, or the ability to accept situations outside of your control without judgment, reduces suffering. (from “What is Radical Acceptance https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-radical-acceptance-5120614) 7) Psychological flexibility, or “holding our thoughts and emotions a bit more lightly, and acting on longer-term values and goals rather than short term impulses, thoughts, and feelings” can lead to a greater sense of purpose and a stronger connection with the present moment (from “What is Psychological Flexibility https://workingwithact.com/what-is-act/what-is-psychological-flexibility/) and 8) From Virtual Couch guest Mike Rucker, author of “The Fun Habit,” https://amzn.to/3ClRTXG doing things, or “encoding richer experiences,” starts to light you up because you are creating an internal “tapestry of really cool stuff,” in your brain rather than simply passing time.
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Tony: Hey everybody. Welcome to episode 355 of the Virtual Couch. I am your host, Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist. Mindful habit coach, writer, speaker, husband, father of four, and creator of the Path back, an online pornography recovery program that is helping people turn into the amazing people that they were meant to be. But let's get to today's episode. First up, just sign up for my newsletter. Go to tonyoverbay.com. Plain and simple because so many things are coming now in 2023. New version of the Magnetic Marriage course is coming soon. If you're still interested in a discount on my Path Back Pornography Recovery Course, new year, new you, then email me through my website and The Magnetic Marriage Podcast is imminent, a true crime meets the Virtual Couch Podcast with one of my daughters is launching soon. The magnetic marriage workshop, which is different from the full fledged course, 90 minutes of what you didn't know that you didn't even know is still available for $19 at tonyoverbay.com/workshop. So, so many things, but let's get to today's episode.
So I am not sure what title I eventually went with, but the working title was, “It's the psychology of the churro, eight mental health lessons learned over Christmas break at Disneyland”. So, surprise. We went to Disneyland for Christmas as in literally on Christmas Day, and this is something that we have never done, and my wife essentially sold it as a bit of a bucket list item. Let's try it. Maybe it will be insanely crowded. Maybe nobody goes on Christmas. It might rain, it might be too cold. But let's jump right in. Psychology rule number one, you'll never really know until you, till you go. So spread that out in a broader sense. And how often in our lives do we just wonder and wonder and ruminate and ask other people what they think, what their opinion is? All the while that the answer lies in the doing. So curious what Disneyland would be like at Christmas. Well, there's really only one good way to know, let's go. And while we're talking about Disneyland, let's talk about churros, the psychology of the churro. Now, in episode 276, I had to go look that one up on the Virtual Couch, which was recorded about a year and a half ago. I talked about what I learned on my summer vacation on a trip no less than to Disneyland. And at that time I went with my daughter McKinley, my niece, Taylor, and my wife Wendy, and we traveled to the Magic Kingdom to celebrate. At that time it was Taylor's graduation from college. And McKinley's graduation from cosmetology school.
And in that episode I spent quite a bit of time talking about dopamine, the wonderful feel good, hyper-focused chemical in our brain, and how the true dopamine bump in our brain occurs in the anticipation of an event, which is so beautifully laid out in James Clear's book, Atomic Habits. And we had our dopamine neurotransmitters transmitting and anticipating that trip as well as throughout the trip as we moved from one ride to another. And I highly recommend you go back and listen to that if you're curious to learn everything you wanted to know about dopamine, because we talk about a lot of things. One fascinating thing there was the concept of the Coolidge effect, which is something where the more that you do this repetitive task, the more that you need to amp up that repetitive task in order to still have those dopamine neurotransmitters transmitting. And so that's especially true in the world of people who turn to pornography as an unhealthy coping mechanism. And why the more that they do that, the more and more they need to turn to, I don’t know, crazier or more extreme things to get that dopamine bump. But I digress. We were talking about so much, as I lamented, in episode 276 that I never attended Disneyland as a child. My first trip was after I was married and my wife couldn't believe that I had never been. So we went a few times before we had kids, but I had also never had a churro until, I don't even think I ate them at Disneyland, but I didn't have a churro until probably in my thirties. So, fast forward 20 years later now in my early fifties, and I've eaten my weight in churros many, many times. And one of the real treats of Disneyland are the churros. And just in case you're like most Americans, the Disneyland churro experience is not the game of chance that is the Costco churro or the churro from the random Mexican restaurant that you may stumble upon, where you're literally gambling on whether or not the churro is good, period.
And then even if it tastes good, is it fresh and is it hot? Oh no. The Disneyland churro cart will no doubt be lining, I think, the gold paved streets of heaven with never too long of a weight and the perfect freshness and heat, and we're not talking just cinnamon, over the holidays, the Disney churro carts feature, and I'm sure I'm missing a few of the following flavors of a churro. And yeah, I did have to google this. Berries and cream, blueberry, green apple. Now, I personally tried one called the Caliente churro that was covered in cinnamon red hot candy sprinkles, but there was also the cinnamon sugar galaxy churro where you're essentially, I think, eating cinnamon and sugar glitter. And I actually meant to follow up and ask about a couple of people in our party that had them if you noticed that glitter a day or so later, if you know what I mean. But anyway, there was a mango churro and a s'mores churro, and one called the bride churro, which was my personal favorite, other than just your original churro, but the bride churro was covered heavily in a bouquet of vanilla and sugar, according to the internet pires, where psychology lesson number two enters the story. So back to that dopamine, the I don’t know, the doggone but wonderful dopamine. So I was very aware during this. Of how, when I found myself with any of the following triggers, tired, feeling like a flat affect, bored, frustrated, angry, lonely, and I'm sure several others, my brain literally did think churro or a time or two a thought, beignet. But churro, yes, a churro would make me feel good. Or walking past a churro cart that was a layup. My brain would say, well, we have to get a churro. And I noticed in particular one, or I don’t know, seven or eight times where I was already incredibly full. But the trigger of the churro card alone signaled to my brain that we need churro almost in that Neanderthal speak, “must have churro”. And then I could remind myself that I had already eaten a meal or I'd already had a churro or two earlier in the day. And my brain thought, oh, okay. How cute. You know, two can play this game, so let's go. So then it would come up with all the “yeah, buts”.
Well, yeah. You're only at Disneyland every couple of years. Or what if a zombie apocalypse occurs in Disneyland and their churro carts are destroyed? And so you better have all the churros now, or it's the end of the year and you might want to dough up a little bit. So when you start the new diet and exercise regime come January one, then those transformation pictures and videos will be even greater if you put down an even two dozen churros over the next three days, so not to mention all the aforementioned flavors of churro, my brain telling me that, well, you don't want to miss out on the blueberry churro or the green apple churro. Or the fact that my watch showed that we walked well over 10 miles on day one, and so therefore, I deserve these churros, and on and on and on. So, my point being that our brains are really, really clever, especially when it comes to wanting their fix, or their high, and after a churro or two, I really didn't notice how my brain thought often about wanting one, especially whenever I was feeling flat or down or any of those other triggers that I mentioned earlier, which led to psychology lesson number three, which I'll just call being present or being in the moment. And this was a really important one that I was so aware of when I was aware of it during the trip. I once attended a mindfulness training and I remember the instructor challenged us all to go home and mindfully eat a piece of fruit. And what does that look like? Well, he said spend at least 15 minutes appreciating, savoring, taking in every sight and bite and sound and taste of whatever that fruit was. And I did try it with an apple and I lasted a few minutes, and it was a pretty good experience before I think I probably became distracted, but I've thought about that exercise often and I understand the point to being in that moment and appreciating every bite.
So I did try that a couple of times with the churro. And I would take in the smell and I would feel the heat radiating through the piece of wax paper used as a holder. And I would notice the granules of cinnamon and sugar. And then I would thank the universe for them, and I would bite down and I would hear this crunch through the perfect mix of solid and soft, maybe savoring the flavor and then I feel like at times, and I'm sure I'm probably going to humor here, I would enter almost some sort of sugar themed dissociative fugue state, where I would then almost in essence come to with noticing, I don't know, I'm gnawing on my finger or cinnamon and sugars all over my face like a child, and my family probably phones out filming my coming to from this, I don't know, sugar coma, wondering where I was, you know, until I could realize, okay, I'm in line. I can smell the rubber of the poncho draped over me as we're waiting in line for Splash Mountain. But my true point there is that it is fascinating that you can even bring yourself into the moment, the present moment, being mindful, all those wonderful therapeutic things that we talk about with mindfulness, and appreciating and doing. But then you can do that until you don't. And what I simply mean by that is one of these things that I love talking about the most from the book Buddha Brain, and I'll own that I have now completely butchered the author Rick Hansen's concept. But he's in essence talking about these four steps to enlightenment or four paths of awakening or something to that effect where I've boiled it down in my own brain to, you basically didn't know what you didn't know.
So before I even knew about mindfulness, I'm just, I'm just there. I'm just inhaling churros and I'm just trying to chase happiness or whatever that looks like. Then you start becoming aware, so you kind of know the things that you didn't know before. But that's a really difficult place to be at times, because I know, but then I don't always do. So I might have been in that moment recognizing, man, this is a moment, and I was noticing that I was feeling down or flat, and I come back to the present moment and let's say that I'm savoring that churro until all of a sudden I realize I'm not. So I went from not being aware of what I wasn't even aware of to now I'm aware I'm going to be in that moment until all of a sudden, I'm not.
And that isn't me doing anything wrong or bad. It just kind of is. And that's a tough place to be because there's a lot of things in our lives that we start to become aware of. But then we're not good at doing, you know, we might not be good at bringing ourself back into the present moment. We might want to stop yelling at our kids, and then we may be able to do that often, but we're not perfect at it. So then we beat ourselves up about, well, now that I know, and why did I still yell and what's wrong with me? But nothing, you're a human being and now you're aware. So that second phase or path of enlightenment or awakening is that we went from not knowing what we didn't know to now I know, and I do, sometimes, whatever this new thing is, and then that moves slowly but surely into the third step or path of awakening or enlightenment, where now you do whatever it is more than you don't. So now maybe you're not yelling at your kids very often at all, or maybe I'm almost finishing that churro and being so present and in the moment and eventually you just become. That is what it feels like to be you. You just do, now all of a sudden you are this calmer person around your kids, or you are a person that really is in that moment and savors and appreciates the entire churro. So that just being present and being in the moment is something that does need practice and to give yourself a tremendous amount of grace as you start to work on this path of awareness or enlightenment or as you start to make your way further down the churro.
But I really do recommend the exercise of trying to be incredibly present while you eat or drink, because that's just a good way to practice being present, being in the moment, or mindfulness in just your everyday life. But while we're on the churro, I would say that that would also lead to psychology lesson four, which is turning to unhealthy coping mechanisms to again, get that dopamine bump. Now if I go back to just part of the work that I do, I love couples therapy. I love helping people working through a faith deconstruction or journey. And I also work with a lot of people that struggle with turning to unhealthy coping mechanisms such as pornography, hence the Path Back Pornography Recovery Program. But I know when I was promoting my book, He's a Porn Addict, Now What? An Expert and a Former Addict to Answer Your Questions with Josh Shea, that at that time I had counted up and I had worked with well over 1500 individuals who have come to me wanting to be more present in their lives, wanting to be better marriage partners, better parents, improve their health, wanting to understand their relationship with the divine and their desires of a more fulfilling career. Now, they don't come to me expressing those things. They come to me because they want to stop turning to things like pornography, that it is absolutely zapping their motivation, their drive. They find themselves wasting a tremendous amount of time, which only causes them to beat themselves up even more.
And when it comes to things like pornography, it also probably can warp or dull their sex drive or make them have a more difficult time being present with their spouse, their mate, but, so that's what people come to me for, but you can replace, again, pornography with turning to their phones or gambling or food or work or even things like exercise or YouTube or TikTok. But when it comes to turning to unhealthy coping mechanisms, that's where, I learned a long time ago, what I call these five voids. So I go back to when I said, people are coming to me wanting to be better marriage partners, better parents, improve their health, understand their relationship with the divine, desires of a more fulfilling career. Those five voids that I like to help people with when they turn to unhealthy coping mechanisms are becoming a better marriage partner or just a better partner in their relationships or becoming a better parent, or that could even be a better friend or finding something that really motivates or matters to them with regard to a career or if they feel, you know, for lack of a better word, stuck in a career. How can you work your values into your current career? Or working on your relationship with God or the divine or your faith. If you feel like that is not a place that brings you strength or joy, then, these are all things that will lead or cause someone to turn to unhealthy coping mechanisms. And that fifth void is your health as well. So, there's an acronym in the world of unhealthy coping mechanisms or addiction called halt, where if you are hungry, if you're angry, if you're lonely, if you're tired, that those are times when you have to watch out cause your guard's down, and you may then turn to these unhealthy coping mechanisms. So if you can shore up parenting or marriage or faith or health or your career, then that siren song of the coping mechanism is not gonna scream at you as loud, which is a pretty nice transition into psychology lesson five, which I just call turning toward value-based activities. So, long lines at Disneyland. That was no surprise. Now, they weren't horrible. I think part of it was going in, and anticipating and accepting the fact that yeah, there were going to be some long lines. And so that was okay. That part was all right because there was already an expectation or an anticipation that would be the case.
Now, that does not cause everyone to just be happy and motivated and hyper presents for the two hours in the wait for this new Star Wars ride, which is pretty darn amazing. And I was a Star Wars guy however many years ago that the first three came out, which makes me sound so old. And over time have probably not kept up on all the different Star Wars vehicles and then the entire franchise in Star Wars Canon. But in that Star Wars line, there were nine of us. And it was over two hours, the wait. And I felt like that was probably the test, the verbal exam, the experiential exam on mindfulness and being present at Disneyland. I think it was day two. And so we were already getting pretty tired and this is where I go back to that when you are aware of what matters to you, let's just go with the, it's easier to state it as when you're in touch or in alignment with your values. So I have absolutely a certainty that my values are a couple of them. Authenticity. I need to be authentic. I can't just do something to try to make somebody else happy. And I have a strong value of curiosity, adventure, fitness, and knowledge. And so the curiosity and the knowledge are things that I return to.
So, I could tell the mood everybody was starting to just get a little bit flat. People are getting on their phones. We're not communicating as much when we've been in this line for a while. And at that moment when you notice, you know, I notice that I'm starting to feel flat. I notice I'm starting to feel a little bit of anxiety around wanting to make sure that everybody's having a wonderful time, and so here's where I go big on there's three things I think that we typically do that are probably not the best when we find ourselves in those situations. The first one is to say, what's wrong with me? Again, nothing. You are a human being. You're the only version of you and check it out. That's how you think and feel at that very moment. First time I had ever been in that line on the second day of Disneyland on that day with nine people at hour number whatever of the day. And also experiencing temporary closures of the ride and trying to figure out if we should leave the line or not leave the line and managing a lot of people, helping people manage their expectations. So that is how I felt. And those were my feelings, and that was how I was showing up. So check that out. The second thing that I think we do along those lines, that is not the best is then when we, okay, so we don't do the, what's wrong with me, and then I feel like the next one's a layup where we also can't tell ourselves, well, don't think that. Because again, don't think of a pineapple right now. Don't think of a green polar bear holding a yellow umbrella, riding a unicycle because most likely your brain is following along with me because of that good old psychological reactance or that instant negative reaction being told what to do. Our brain is just hardwired. It's a defense mechanism at that point. It's a survival skill. And so I can't say, “what's wrong with me?”, because nothing, I'm a human. I have emotions and feelings and I can't say “don't think that” because I will think about it even more. And then the third thing I think is kind of tricky as well, is we will tell ourselves, okay, instead of that, just think something else is think, man, I'm so grateful to be here. And that can work for a minute, until it doesn't. Until then, all of a sudden I feel the pain in my feet and I feel the, I was going to say the lightness of my wallet and all these things where I can start to then notice that I am starting to feel flat or down or fill in the blank. So that's where I feel like the best thing that one can do is recognize and acknowledge that I am starting to feel flat. Check that out. I'm noticing that I'm starting to withdraw, to retreat, to feel flat. And then what is the story? My brain's telling me that people aren't having a good time or that I need to do something to make sure that everybody's happy, or these sorts of things. So those are stories my brain's telling me. Those are fascinating. I can make room for those. But then the key is then in that moment turning to a value-based activity. So a value-based activity of curiosity or of knowledge, I still have this in the cache of my browser. 15 random facts about Disneyland. And so at that point, now I'm turning to this value of curiosity and knowledge and then just sharing some facts.
And it led to some fun conversations. If I scroll through this, Mickey Mouse's name, did you know that Mickey Mouse was not the original choice of his name originally? He was to be named Mortimer. But later, it was turned into Mickey Mouse. California Adventure, which I love, I love that place, was a parking lot formerly. That one doesn't really make me think, oh my goodness, that sort of thing. There's a statue of Walt Disney on Main Street and it's seven inches taller than Walt himself was. Now it doesn't tell why, but as a person that is not towering over others. As I am not, I can see myself bumping that statue up a little bit. I might have gone a solid foot taller. And then, this website, which is actually called Everythingmom.com, but it also says the original design was supposed to have him with an ice cream in his hand, but that was rejected. And rumor has it that his hand is in the air and a celebratory “look, Mickey, at what we created.” You know what was almost Mortimer. Main Street. I thought this was interesting. The buildings along Main Street USA are built to create the effect of a longer street when entering the park and a shorter street when going back to your car. And then there were just a few others, the millionth guest of Disneyland was actually achieved within a month of the park opening, and there's a light in the window above the fire station and the apartment on Main Street. That's the apartment that Walt Disney would stay in. And that light and the apartment represented him working hard. He said he always wanted his employees to know that he was working just as hard as them. So since Walt Disney's death, it's been kept on 24/7 as a reminder of Walt Disney's dedication and hard work. And mustaches, Walt Disney did not allow his male employees to have mustaches. And then one more, one more of these fun facts, because we would see a lot of these different wishing wells, and they had money in them. They had dollar bills in them, they had coins, and we were continually playing the game of how much? And so in everythingmom.com, she says, did you know this random Disney fact with all the money that is thrown into the ponds and wishing wells, Walt decided very early on to always donate it to charity. And she says, could you imagine how much money is donated? Rumor is that every time It’s a Small World shuts down for refurbishment, they clean it out and it totals over a hundred thousand dollars each time. That's a lot of money, so turning to this value of curiosity, this value of knowledge, and then that will bring you more into the present moment.
Now, the reason why I want to share this is because what I thought was really fascinating, and I think this is such a valuable lesson, is that as soon as we would almost go through a list like that, and then you would notice that people were kind of done maybe talking. It wasn't like then I was locked in and the rest of the day everything was amazing and great and wonderful. No, our brain will default back to the “yeah, buts”, or I'm noticing my feet again are hurting or my wallet is light, or whatever that is. And I want to just normalize that because a lot of times I feel like people will bring themselves into that moment, be mindful, turn to a value-based activity, and then they will do that, be more engaged in the moment. And then when they stop doing that, then they will say, see, that didn't work. And quite frankly, it's the opposite. That did work because for that entire period of time we had a shared. And now we had some fun facts and we will probably remember some of those things at a later date and be able to share those with others but we had a moment there instead of just feeling down or feeling flat.
And I'll get to this in a little bit, I've got a quote from a former guest of mine that was on a few weeks ago, Mike Rucker, that I think will speak to this. So, that turning toward value-based activities. Another one that I thought was really fascinating was we played this game “Heads Up” and if you're familiar with that, you download this app on your phone and it's basically like charades. And we did that one, two or three times, and that was one where I can turn to my value of curiosity and look up fun facts at any point on any day. And that is just very fun. That is one of the things I really enjoy. But I don't always enjoy playing charades in a line where there are a million people around because my, “yeah, buts” in my brain will say, yeah, but it's going to be embarrassing. Or, yeah, but what if we hold up the line, and so on. But anytime I felt like anybody started to play this game, this heads up, then all of us were engaged and it was as if we all played a round of it and then it just felt like, okay, we're good. And then another 30 minutes would go by and then we would do that again. So I felt like by alternating between just some fun facts, some random things we were talking about, and then playing this game, that we made it through that line. And now I want to say we live to tell about it. But when I think about that experience in the line, I now think about playing heads up. I think about these fun facts with Disney, and I think about just having that experience rather than just sitting there and feeling bad and worrying and ruminating and getting angry. Which is almost what our brain will do by default. So it does take intentional effort to bring yourself into that present moment, turn toward those value-based activities. But I promise you that by doing that, whenever you can, I was going to make it sound pretty negative, do that over and over and over again, but eventually that becomes part of your implicit memory or what it feels like to be you, because that is based on this residue of lived experience, and it takes time. But the more that you are bringing yourself back into that moment, and taking action on things that matter, that it really does start to move this needle of what it feels like to be you as somebody who does, who does the things that they do, because you're aware and because you bring yourself back into this present moment over and over again, and that starts to feel like more confident, and more of a sense of connection and a sense of purpose, and just being connected with others and in the moment. So let me blast through a couple of others here. Psychology lesson six, and this is one that I want to spend more time on in the not too distant future, and this is the concept of radical acceptance.
So I noticed a lot of this opportunity to practice radical acceptance while we were at the park. And the reason is that the definition of radical acceptance is, I'm going to pull up a Verywellmind.com article, but radical acceptance is based on the notion that suffering comes not directly from pain, but from one's attachment to the pain. And it has its roots in Buddhism and the psychological paradigm by a gentleman named Carl Rogers that acceptance is the first step toward change. Radical acceptance. We often feel like if we accept the fact that maybe we are a bit powerless when we are walking through these large crowds that we feel like if we accept it, then that means that it is going to be horrible and I might as well just shut down and sit on the side of the road and wait for everybody to go by. And I'll engage again later that night. But I will say over and over again, acceptance does not mean apathy. So radical acceptance can be defined really as the ability to accept situations that are outside of your control without judging them, which in turn reduces the suffering that's caused by those situations.
So rather than being attached to the fact that, okay, there is a huge crowd here and everybody's going to bump into me, which I feel like was a theme often for a lot of people at Disneyland, and then letting them get frustrated or angry because people were going to stop in front of you. People were going to shift directions. People are going to talk loud, people are going to do a lot of different things there. I felt like it was an ultimate practice of radical acceptance. Again, that accepting situations that are completely outside of my control, it's outside of my control, whether or not somebody stops short in front of me and then decides that they are going to sneeze or cough or talk loudly to somebody beside them. Now I can get frustrated or angry, but to me that doesn't really feel very productive. It's a normal human emotion. I can notice that. But I need to accept those situations that are outside of my control without judgment, and that reduces the suffering that's caused by them. So at that point then, if I go back to this article from verywellmind.com, again, rather than being attached to a painful past, radical acceptance suggests that non-attachment is the key to overcoming suffering. So, non-attachment does not mean not feeling emotion. But it refers to the intention of not allowing pain to turn into suffering. So there was pain and frustration there by the crowds, by people stopping constantly, by people changing direction, by people bumping into each other, bumping into me. I mean, that can be frustrating, but it also means radical acceptance means watching your thoughts and feelings, and then just identifying when you're allowing yourself to feel worse than is necessary.
So instead I could be in that moment and notice and actually, bless the hearts of those people that were stopping short because I know that's something that I've done as well. Or I know that there are times where I have spoken up or yelled to get someone's attention in my party, and I'm sure someone was annoyed or I scared someone or surprised someone. So that lack of judgment is that important part of radical acceptance. And that doesn't even mean that I approve of this situation or that I love the fact that everybody stops in front of me and bumps into me. But instead it involves accepting reality for what it is and not getting caught up in an emotional reaction to that reality. So noticing that I have these thoughts, I have these feelings and noticing that I can have an emotional reaction but not getting caught up in it and not letting that consume me. So that's that concept of radical acceptance. And I feel like radical acceptance has a best friend and that best friend is psychological flexibility. And this is one that I've done an episode or two on because this is a real key part of acceptance and commitment therapy. And this is from a website called Workingwithact.com. Psychological flexibility means contacting the present moment fully as a conscious human based on what that situation affords changing or persisting in behavior and the service of chosen values. So psychological flexibility is more along the lines of what I'm talking about happening in that Star Wars line of contacting that present moment as a conscious human being based on what the situation affords, and then changing the behavior in service of chosen values. So, the author of this article says, so that means in everyday language, this means holding our own thoughts and emotions a bit more and acting on longer term values and goals rather than short-term impulses and thoughts and feelings. And then they say, why? Well, it's because thoughts and emotions tend to be unreliable indicators of long-term value because we have little control. And this is what I think is so key. Again, I think and feel the way I do because I'm a human being and I'm in that situation, and that's how I think and feel.
So we actually have little control over those immediate thoughts and emotions and they will tend to ebb and flow sometimes dramatically in just a moment's notice. And if we trust our thoughts and emotions and act based on them, we can often overlook more important sustained patterns of action, which bring true meaning and vitality and richness to our lives. So if we just say, man, I'm frustrated and angry, and now I take action on being frustrated and angry, then I can get caught up in being frustrated and being angry. But if I notice that I'm frustrated and I notice that I'm angry, those are emotions, of course, I'm going to feel that way. I'm part of the human condition, part of the human experience. But now I'm going to notice them, and now I'm going to take action on things that matter. There are these researchers, Cashtin and Roterberg. They define psychological flexibility as the measure of how a person, number one, adapts to fluctuating situational demands. And number two, reconfigures mental resources. Number three, shifts perspective. And then number four, balances, competing desires, needs, life domains. So then instead of focusing on specific content with a person, the definition of psychological flexibility has to incorporate repeated transactions between people and their environmental contexts. What that means is that it's continuing to adapt to the situations in front of you when what they mean by reconfiguring mental resources is just taking action on something that matters, shifting your perspective, and then starting to put into place your values. You're these competing desires, needs, life domains. I have a value of connection with others. I have a value of curiosity. I'm going to have feelings and thoughts. It's part of being a human. That's okay. But I'm going to take action based on the things that really matter to me, and that is being psychologically flexible at any given moment. So when you can really start to do more of that, and that starts to become the air that you breathe or what it feels like to be you, then when you find yourself in a moment of frustration, then you have this radical acceptance and you have this psychological flexibility, and those things just happen.
The event that you might be caught up in is happening. Check that out. It is, but now I'm going to feel like I have a little more control over that situation because I can now be aware of how I'm thinking and feeling, and that's perfectly okay. And I'm actually going to be able to take action on things that matter, even if it's just within my own brain. That's better than me just sitting in this reactionary state and then feeling like I am absolutely overwhelmed and that I have no control over the situation. Psychology Lesson eight, and we'll wrap this up. This is where I mentioned earlier I had a guest, Mike Rucker. He was on, he's the author of The Fun Habit, and I pulled the transcript because I want to read a quote that he said. He said, “Time is this really rubbery thing.” He said, “It becomes interesting where you don't realize you're wasting time,” he said, “because when you're in those moments that aren't really encoding new memories, they just fly.” He said, “It's not flow by any sense, but when we reminisce back on them, they kind of get condensed as one memory.”
So when we're just, and this is me now interjecting, when we're just thinking and just being, and not taking action on things that matter, it's almost like that just becomes part of this just gray area of our memory. We just remember Christmas, period. But then if we are doing things, he says, “So when we actualize them in a really strange manner where he said, where you think we're kind of led to through cognitive error that, oh, I'm just passing time.” But he said, well, when you start to encode richer experiences, those are the things that start to light you up because now you have a whole tapestry of really cool stuff. He says, “The fact that we now know that the brain is a predictive engine. It's a predictive machine more than a cause and effect machine.” He said that allows us to make better predictions. “Like, I know I'm going to have fun, so I want to do the thing, whatever that thing is , that will allow me this chance to have fun.” And he says, rather, we want that prediction. I think that as I form these memories and encode these richer experiences, that more than likely I'm going to have a good time. I'm going to have fun. But he said, “Rather than the prediction machine of our brain predicting that, well, it probably won't be that great, so I'm just not going to do it.” Because then that becomes condensed into just this one memory, this just gray area and so we just feel like we just passed time instead of just creating this whole tapestry of really cool things that we do in our lives, because over time that's what it's going to feel like to be you.
Okay. Taking us out per usual is the wonderful, the talented, the also on TikTok, Aurora Florence with her song, “It's Wonderful”. Have an amazing week and we'll see you next time on the Virtual Couch.
Tony talks about the mental health and life lessons learned on a recent trip to Disneyland, including the brain’s fascination with anticipation vs. reward, the psychological importance of nostalgia, the “Coolidge Effect,”; how to “let go and play” (http://playtheory.org). Plus, Tony shares the application of his “4 Pillars of a Connected Conversation” with his wife during a ride on Pirates of the Caribbean. Tony also discusses mindfulness tips, how “kindness wins,” and the link between ADHD and “hangry.”
Head to tonyoverbay.com/magnetic to be the first to know the start date of Tony's next round of his "Magnetic Marriage" course.
Tony's FREE parenting course, “Tips For Parenting Positively Even In the Not So Positive Times” is available NOW. Just go to https://www.tonyoverbay.com/courses-2/ and sign up today. This course will help you understand why it can be so difficult to communicate with and understand your children. You’ll learn how to keep your buttons hidden, how to genuinely give praise that will truly build inner wealth in your child, teen, or even in your adult children, and you’ll learn how to move from being “the punisher” to being someone your children will want to go to when they need help.
Tony's new best-selling book "He's a Porn Addict...Now What? An Expert and a Former Addict Answer Your Questions" is now available on Kindle. https://amzn.to/38mauBo
Tony Overbay, is the co-author of "He's a Porn Addict...Now What? An Expert and a Former Addict Answer Your Questions" now available on Amazon https://amzn.to/33fk0U4. The book debuted in the number 1 spot in the Sexual Health Recovery category and remains there as the time of this record. The book has received numerous positive reviews from professionals in the mental health and recovery fields.
You can learn more about Tony's pornography recovery program The Path Back by visiting http://pathbackrecovery.com And visit http://tonyoverbay.com and sign up to receive updates on upcoming programs, and podcasts.
Tony mentioned a product that he used to take out all of the "uh's" and "um's" that, in his words, "must be created by wizards and magic!" because it's that good! To learn more about Descript click here https://descript.com?lmref=v95myQ
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[00:00:00] Today, we are going to talk about Disneyland, so even if you're not a Disneyland fan, I hope that you will sit back and enjoy a therapist take on the Magic Kingdom.
[00:00:26] Come on, take a seat.
[00:00:32] So a few weeks ago with my wife, my daughter MacKinley, my niece Taylor, we headed to Disneyland down in Southern California and a true confession. I did not go to Disneyland as a kid. And I don't want you to get out the violins or the sad music. But my first trip was with Wendy a couple of years after we were married, and she would go often as a kid. So she was so excited to share the magic of Disneyland with me. And it was wonderful. And we were married in the year nineteen ninety so long ago. So I have to believe that we went somewhere in that early to mid 90s. And so for anybody keeping score, California Adventure, the other theme park that is across the the, the little pathway there to Disneyland was first opened in 2001. So our first trip was classic Disneyland. I did a quick Google search and the rides consisted of the classics. There was, of course, a small world which literally did break down on us halfway through. And that song to this day still brings back memories as a nice way to put it. Of that first trip, there was Pirates of the Caribbean that was pre the addition of Johnny Depp's Jack Sparrow talking to you right before you made that ascent back to sea level, as well as so many other rides that were based off of the classic movies like Peter Pan and Cinderella and Dumbo and you name it.
[00:01:43] But this time around, we were pros. We had been dozens and dozens of times with our kids. And despite living in Northern California for a few years, we held season passes and we had made the drive down south whenever we had a free weekend and loaded up the kids and we were going to create good memories. Doggone on it. But this was one of the first times where I felt like there was absolutely zero kid related responsibilities here. McKinley as my kid. But she was I don't know, she's twenty twenty one, twenty two somewhere in that range and we could just go and be present. And in doing so, honestly, my therapist brain was on high alert of all the various correlations to the entire mental health world, the mental health process. So today, welcome to episode two hundred and seventy six. We're going to talk about those those things that the therapist picks up on while in Disneyland. So. Two hundred and seventy six episodes. Welcome to this episode of The Virtual Couch. I am your host. Tony Over became a licensed marriage and family therapist and a certified mind will have a coach and writer and a speaker and a husband father for all those wonderful things. And I still would encourage you to go to Pathbackrecovery.com if you if you want to learn any any everything you want to know about putting pornography as a coping mechanism in the rearview mirror.
[00:02:54] And it can be done in a very strength based hold the shame, become the person you always wanted to be kind of way. But man episode two hundred and seventy six. I have to do a quick side note. I was at an event this weekend and I ran into someone, a woman named Robin Kopa. Robin had been a guest on my podcast, I think on Episode nineteen and it was so just fun to see her there. And we reminisced a little bit. Of course, I had my blockade of people. I had my handlers, my bodyguards. Now now that I have two hundred and seventy six episodes and as I had one of my assistants communicate with her, I wouldn't ever communicate directly with me. Man, OK, I'm trying to be funny right now, but I think what if somebody really does? Believe me, I had this whole bit in my head about, you know, that I was there with my with my hair plugs and my gold teeth and my all those things. I really wasn't that way. Was so good to see Robin. But she may just ask some questions about how the podcast is grown. And I do remember sitting with her literally on my couch on Episode nineteen to talk about parenting and recognizing in that moment, I wasn't really sure how to do an interview with two people in the same room and see if you could hear us.
[00:03:57] And I think if you go back on and listen to that episode, you don't really hear us very well. So it was so neat to just kind of reminisce with Robin about those early days of the podcast. And I'm so grateful for people who do listen to the episodes. And before we get to the topic today, of course, magnetic marriage course, I know I talk about it often, but it's because it's a phenomenal opportunity to teach you and a spouse new communication skills and ways to be more connected. And we'll give some examples even today of using the four pillars of a connected conversation, even when I was with my wife at Disneyland. But the next round of the magnetic marriage course is coming up. And you can go to Tony Overbay.com magnetic to find out more or just drop me an email through the website, through Tony Overbay.com and let me know if you're interested and I'll make sure that you are one of the first to know when the next round starts. And this is kind of fun. I'm heading to Utah later this week to film an episode of Family Rules with Brooke Walker. And I'll be talking about parenting. So if you don't follow me on Instagram, please do a virtual couch. And I'm going to try to film a lot of the behind the scenes stuff and I will keep you posted when that episode will air.
[00:05:02] I know it's for their season three and I'm not sure when season three debuts. So that's going to be fun. But let's get to the things that I learned at Disneyland. So I first want to start with this concept of anticipation and anticipation and the way that the the neuro neurotransmitter, the way that dopamine works in our brain. So do you have things in your life that you antispam? And I'm talking even if it's on a daily basis or if you anticipate date nights with a spouse or do you have small vacations and a weekend getaways, or do you have one big vacation that you're looking forward to that might even be months out? Or I remember when I used to do a lot of racing, ultra running, I, I typically had a race once a month. I would do 12 to 15 events a year. And I realized later that that was a way for me to always have something on the calendar, something to train toward, something to really look forward to. And a lot of that is we now have some pretty cool science around anticipation and dopamine in the way dopamine works with the reward center. So the person who put this best is James Clear. And in his fantastic book, Atomic Cabot's, he's talking about cravings. But the science is, I think, similar spot on. And I will relate this to Disneyland. He said. The cravings are the most underrated component of the habit loop because they have only recently been better understood.
[00:06:21] The strength and influence of cravings can best be demonstrated with a quick explanation of neurobiology. So he says that dopamine and I think we hear so much about the dopamine is the primary neurotransmitter in our reward experiencing pathway, and it was designed to evolutionarily encourage positive behaviors that help in survival. So that was the initial. That's why we have dopamine to encourage positive things to encourage. So dopamine plays into that reward center and we want to reward ourselves when we do good things. So that kind of makes sense. But he said only recently was it discovered that the largest dopamine spike in the brain occurs in anticipation of the reward, not actually while experiencing the reward. So put that in the context of when you are anticipating the reward, anticipating date night, anticipating going on vacation, anticipating the next race, anticipating whatever that you are anticipating, but that will actually spike or flood dopamine and dopamine is this chemical that not only is this feel good chemical, but it's also somebody like me with ADHD. When you take a medication, a stimulant, it is helping flood your brain with the dopamine that it's missing so that dopamine also helps you stay hyper focused and fixated on something. So it had been a while since we had been to Disneyland. So the anticipation factor really was on full alert. And we got there and we immediately made this beeline to California adventure.
[00:07:43] That was the tickets that we happen to have these parkop or tickets. We had to start in one park and then at one o'clock the floodgates would open and we could go back and forth these Park Hopper tickets. So we went to California Adventure. And my favorite ride is the one formerly known as Tower of Terror. But now it was Guardians of the Galaxy. So that was something that I had not experienced. And I again, I love everything about the ride that was Tower of Terror. So now I had this Guardians of the Galaxy experience to look forward to in a ride that I already knew the basics of. I was going to be going up in a tower and I was going to be drop in and lift it up and dropped repeatedly. And I love that. I love that feeling in my stomach. And so and I really enjoyed the movie Guardians of the Galaxy. So the anticipation was on high alert. So just waiting in line. My dopamine was flowing. I was like a little kid. I was so excited. I was locked in. And that ride did not disappoint for even a single second. It really didn't. And the lines were really short. We timed it just right as the world was kind of reopening post pandemic and we immediately went back and did it again. And that was the first time where I realized that the dopamine was definitely higher flowing and that anticipation of the unknown.
[00:08:58] And then we we experienced the ride, which was amazing and fantastic. But I could notice that even when we were in line again for that second ride, that it wasn't that now we were bored out of our gourds and we didn't want to do it anymore. But it definitely wasn't that same excitement. But here was what I thought was so amazing. And I was so aware of this for the rest of the trip that the dish every time we went in this, I feel like this further back, the clear's research. You have these opportunities in Disneyland to get your picture taken, which when I was a dad of younger kids, I found pretty annoying because then the kids always wanted the pictures and the pictures were very expensive. And then I would feel like a bad dad because I couldn't afford all the pictures, which, by the way, now I feel like my ATV is flown. But it was so fascinating to look at all these other angles of Disneyland. They had a then opportunity where you could buy all the pictures and one day for I think it was twenty dollars. And so I bought my wife, my daughter and my niece to tears and talking about what I've learned about the role of an actuary, because I've had clients now that have become actuaries for insurance companies or one that did for a large I think it was an online gambling establishment.
[00:10:09] But what an actuary does is they figure out the math, something I'm not very good at, but they figure out that math of what makes more sense to charge individually for the pictures or if you will, you get more money if you to say, OK, we can do fourteen ninety five a picture or we can say. Nineteen ninety nine, and then you get all the pictures you want in the day, so they had this photo pass nineteen ninety nine. So obviously the people at Disneyland are they're smart. They want to make a profit. So that must have been the financially better decision. And I was in so then we were going to get pictures taken all over the park and, and every ride so in every single ride. So yes we would then start to feel again. It wasn't that we were bored or were flat as we were waiting to go on the ride again. But I found myself and I'll give you a splash mountain as an example. The first time down that death defying drop when we're almost fallen out of the log, the pretend log to get the best picture we can as we're were plummeting to our death. That was exciting. So then the next time we go in, as we're waiting in line and even as we're just meandering on this water ride, this log flume, it did feel a little bit like I could almost fall asleep.
[00:11:19] But then when it was almost picture time, I remember at one point I was literally OK, guys, is go time because we will go over what picture are we going to do? I think we had a really funny one where, I don't know, my daughter Maggie holds her phone and it looks like we're taking a selfie. We're on this just steep decline and we're all kind of piling out to the left or the right posing for this photo. So that was a really fascinating experience to just see that, OK, that initial ride was amazing. But then we took an OK picture and then we proceeded to ride it several more times. This ride Splash Mountain over the next seventy two hours, always with the goal of taking a better, funnier picture so that dopamine would be obey until you got right up to the drop. And then it was go time and it was picture time and the excitement was solid. And so I found that same experience the first time we went on the ride of Indiana Jones. It was amazing. And we held on for Dear Life and we had fun. And then we went again with wondering what it would feel like if we just didn't ever hold on to anything with our hands at all. And that was thrilling and it was exciting every moment that dopamine was just flowing and we were thrown around like rag dolls, which was new and it was novel and it was exciting because our brains, they do want more and more and more.
[00:12:29] And not that I would anticipate that you were guessing that I would probably talk about anything to do with pornography and to talk about Disneyland, which there's I'm not putting a correlation there together. But I did think this was a fascinating time to talk about this concept called the Coolidge Effect. And so I did an episode on this a long time ago. But it's, again, talking about dopamine and tolerance. So our brain again, I just made the comment that our brain wants more and more. It wants new, it wants novel, and it wants exciting. And there was an article a few years ago by a Harvard scientist, Kevin Magennis, and he talked about the role of dopamine. And I thought he said that this is really fascinating to me. He shared that scientists have discovered and hang with me here. But if you place a male rat in a cage with a receptive female, they will mate. But once done, the male rat will not mate more times. Even if the female is still receptive, he loses all sexual interest. But if right after he finishes with the first female, you put a second receptor female in, he'll immediately begin and then a third and so on until he nearly dies.
[00:13:30] And that same effect has been found in every animal studied. And this is called the Coolidge effect. And there's a funny story of why it's called the Coolidge effect. And I'll let you go find the podcast I did on the Coolidge effect to hear more about that story. But so Kevin Margera said this explains why men use pornography, pornography as power comes from the way it tricks the man's lower brain. One of the drawbacks of this region is that it can't tell the difference between an image and reality. So pornography will often offer a man an unlimited number of seemingly willing females. And every time he sees the new partner with every click, it gives off a sex drive against. That means the lower brain, the Neanderthal part of the brain actually will eventually come to prefer pornography to the real partner. And so he says, think of the difference between playing chess and playing the latest video game. Even though chess isn't physical, it can't compete with the intensity of the video game in the brain over time. Prefers the video game and the reason it does is because of this chemical dopamine. So then what he talks about is that dopamine is also we talk about this. It's hyperfocus drug. It's also this drug of desire. And so when you see something desirable ah, as as James Claire talks about an atomic habits are when you find something desirable, when you anticipate something desirable, then the brain pours out dopamine.
[00:14:42] And so it says dopamine fixes our attention on that desirable object so gives you this power of concentration. So he says that when somebody clicks and sees this new pornographic image, the lower brain thinks that it's the real thing. So now all of a sudden, his brain says we must win over that willing female. So the first exposure to a new female who wasn't a potential mate wasn't something that happened to a lot of our ancestors, maybe only once in their lives that know it's this their brain was designed to find there are potential mate and pour out this dopamine winner over to a nice little dance, ruffle some feathers, whatever they do in the animal kingdom. And then we we get our mate and then we are good. So we're continually just gaming this. Permit system. And so when you look at it in terms of something like roller coasters or that sort of thing, it's pretty harmless. That can be really fun. But when it comes to someone that is searching out pornography as a coping mechanism, he said that if a person keeps up the dopamine screen by overstimulating himself with porn, then his brain will start to turn the volume way down. And the brain synapses don't like being overstimulated with dopamine. So they respond by down regulating some of the dopamine receptors, which means that those dopamine receptors, they withdraw. And and so then they they destroy that receptor within the neuron.
[00:15:58] So down regulation is how the brain then turns down that dopamine volume. And then once the dopamine binge is gone, it's left feeling this vacuum of silence so it feels depleted. So he says that's why pornography can cause this vicious cycle, that when someone who is prone to addiction, abuse, pornography, then they get overstimulated by dopamine. Their brain will destroy some of those dopamine receptors and that makes them feel depleted. So they go back to pornography. But now having fewer dopamine receptors, they will need to game the dopamine system. They start to find that they have to use pornography for longer or longer periods of time to have the same effect. And they may even have to start looking at more crazy, wilder things to try to get that same dopamine stimulation. So I've got a whole episode on that. And the good news is you can reveal those dopamine neural receptors by becoming able to turn away from pornography as a coping mechanism. But anyway, I digress. And I really didn't plan on going into that much detail. But I think that's such fascinating science, especially as we learn more about the role of dopamine. So dopamine in the anticipation of a roller coaster is fascinating. So I was the next thing that I learned in Disneyland, and this was so exciting. And I want to give a huge shout out to a podcast called The Happiness Playbook.
[00:17:18] My buddy Neal Hooper hosted and one of my good friends, Larry Florence, is the one who started it. And she runs an incredible nonprofit theater group in my area called Takeno Troupe. And they, Larry, came up a long time ago with something called Play Theory. And you can go to play theory big. And I would highly, highly recommend you go check out Play the and the Happiness Playbook podcast. But they have these four principles of play theory. And the second one is called Let Go and Play. And I had a daughter, my daughter, daughter and my daughter Sydney was in the Takeno Troop Theater Group years ago and was in a few plays. And I remember being introduced to this concept of play theory and I fell in love right away. And the second principle of play theory, and I don't think I've ever shared this, Larry, but I remember that so well that let go and play. And so I thought about that often while we were at Disneyland. I think about it often in a lot of things I do, especially when I'm out in public or I'm with my family or kids or somewhere we're just trying to be in the moment. But so let go and play on play theory dog. They say leave the ego at the door, have fun, leave your comfort zone. And with the phrase the kids, I'll send it, go all in.
[00:18:28] And nowhere do I do this more than on rides and being at Disneyland now, again, trying to be as present as possible, having just gone through this, what, year, year and a half of quarantine and committing man, I thought I did mindfulness before, but just having daily mindfulness practice over and over, it's now been years and years. But I had to double and triple down on my mindfulness practice over the last year and a half just to be able to stay present and stay afloat at times, emotionally, mentally. And so what what that looks like is let's scream, let's have an amazing time. And there were so many times where on Big Thunder Mountain Railroad or on the water right in California Adventure or on Space Mountain, where and my wife is just all in with me that when we are on that ride, I let it go. I scream like a little kid. I throw my arms up in the air. I have the most fun and I want that to be infectious. I remember getting on the water right again. It's this eight people in this rounded tube and you're going to get soap. This is a California adventure and and just prepare to be soaked. And that's part of the fun. But we had four of us and four strangers that walked in, two groups of two and immediately and maybe some of you aren't going to like being on a ride with me, but I'm asking them, is this your first time on the ride? Are you excited? Are you worried about getting wet? And already these people that are kind of feeling like they were just going to kind of keep to themselves or starting to share with us a little bit more and then the anticipation, the dopamine starts flowing.
[00:19:56] And we are just in that moment and we are having an amazing time. And if somebody gets wet, we're screaming and oh, my gosh, and no, no. And try to move away from the water. And we just had the best time we let go and play. And how often can you check your ego at the door and let go and play? It's one of the most powerful things to show your kids. It's one of the most things that will cause you to feel the most alive if you're out there in public and you're so worried about what other people think about you, which let me tell you is. Normal, I feel like that is most people's default setting, and I know that it didn't help growing up a lot when I would tell my kids when they say, dad, that's embarrassing. And I would say, OK, well, if I see all these people tomorrow, then I'll apologize then. And I used to think I was pretty witty about that. But really, all you can do is be present for yourself, even in the with the fear of invalidation, that if somebody else saying, oh, jeez, you're embarrassing me, man, I am so sorry that that you are embarrassed, but I am going to go all in so that let go and play at Disneyland was one of the most amazing things that you could possibly do, because, you know, you only have one chance to make the most of every single moment of your life.
[00:21:01] So live it. And what I love about the principles of acceptance and commitment therapy is even then our brain will say, well, man, I haven't made the most of my life or maybe I haven't been as present or I haven't been able to let go and play. And that's OK. We'll note that, you know, your brain is constantly trying to orient itself by ruminating about the past. I wish I would have done more of this. I wish I would have known this earlier. I wish I would have been able to do these different things. And it's perfectly normal and human. And when you notice that you're having those thoughts or ruminations or looking back at the past, then just just note it just like me. Yeah, I wish I wish I did. I wish I would have had my ADHD diagnosis 15 years earlier. I would have been a whole lot more productive. OK, I'll note that. Or we then go when we fortuneteller, we get our crystal ball out. We say, and what if I'm what if I'm not present? What if I'm not able to accomplish the things that I really want to, then we'll just kind of acknowledge that then that would be hard.
[00:21:54] And I hope that's not the case. But I'm going to drop the rope of the tug of war on the past and the future and just worry about right now and not even worry. I'm going to be present. That is one of the best things that you can do. And I was going to save the best for last of the things that I learned at Disneyland. But I know how podcasts are consumed. I know that sometimes we do have the best of intentions and we get distracted and we don't come back to a podcast. So I'm going to be vulnerable and to be human, I'm going to be raw, to be authentic. And all the therapist words. And I want to talk about exchange that I had with my wife. And I got her clearance to share everything about this exchange, because if you are if you are in a relationship, if you're a couple, you are interacting with your with older parents or siblings or your kids or people in the workplace think you get the point if you are a human being. And I think there's some gold to be mined in this conversation. So I jotted down some notes. So forgive me if you're watching this on the YouTube channel and be reading a little bit here.
[00:22:54] So I really do enjoy a good nap. I feel like I don't I try to get the most out of every minute of every day. So when it is time downtime, my brain tends to say we're just going to shut off right now. So and there's something oddly satisfying to me about almost this repetition, repetitive tasks in order for me to provide an even better napping experience. It's almost as if my brain knows what's coming so I can actually relax some kind of setting the stage here that there are places that I nap Disneyland that are amazing, I can nap through now. It's a small world and it's just such a pleasant, pleasant nap with the repetitive nature of the song going on. Or I can nap like a champ in Pirates of the Caribbean. And the quick side note, when I was going to school, I started my college experience in Kansas State University in Manhattan, Kansas. I was trying to play baseball there and we would leave. I was in this fraternity and we would walk the campus. And in the winter it was brutally cold. And at that time I also had a horrific comb over. I was losing my hair like nobody's business. I hadn't dealt with that yet, so man. And it would just cold and windy. And so I would if I could get into a building and then try to go take care of my flap of hair on the top of my head and be somewhat presentable.
[00:24:05] I wasn't going to go back out again. So even when I had gaps in the day hours, at times between classes, I would stay in a particular building. And there was one where I found this giant lecture hall and there was this two hour lecture, three days a week. I have no idea what the subject matter was, but I would just go in there and I would just settle down and I would take the greatest nap in the history of all naps three days a week, almost my entire freshman year. And it was this amazing experience because of just the repetitive nature of the droning of the professor. And it was just amazing. But anyway, Pirates', it can be my naptime. So we're on the right and here's where this is not going to be my best self, but again, I got to own this. So Wendy and I are in a row of seats by ourselves. I think we're in the second row. I believe my daughter, my daughter MacKinley and my niece Taylor in the front row and my wife just happens to be on her phone. We're starting to just float at the beginning. If you're familiar with the Pirates of the Caribbean, ride the restaurant, the Blue Bayou is to our right. And so we're not yet kind of engaging in the ride.
[00:25:02] And I don't I don't know what my wife is looking at. She's she's on her phone. And I just impulsively make this comment and I just say, hey, are you present? Make sure you present. And the second it came out of my mouth, I wish I could have taken it back. And I immediately apologized. And I I knew it wasn't necessarily the time, but I did not want to ruin that ride for her by what I had said. And so we worked through the four pillars of a connected conversation right there before we started getting into the the real meat of the ride. And so stay with me here, because there's some concepts of the magnetic marriage course I'm going to bring into here these four pillars of a connected conversation. And it was amazing. So either one of us could really jump into the framework if both of us were aware or both of us were committed to using these four pillars of a connected conversation. But even if one of us wasn't aware of the four pillars, you can you can still get to this framework. And let me explain. So I see her on her phone. So at that point, when I finally notice that I am being a complete weenie turd, you fill in the blank and that that was something that I wish I had not said then I can pillar no one, assume good intentions. So by that I mean that if I'm seeing her on her phone and it bothers me for some reason, we'll get to that, that then I can assume that she's not trying to do that to hurt me.
[00:26:22] And I know that can sound odd or maybe out of context, but stick with me here. So pillar number one, which is a game changer. I heard it two or three times yesterday in sessions of people talking about that. One is so it helps people stay more present. So assuming good intentions, she wasn't on her phone to try to hurt me. She didn't wake up in the morning and say, wait a second, the lights go down. I'm on Blue Bayou. I'm getting on that phone. I'm going to annoy the heck out of Tony. That's what I'm going to do. I mean, there's no chance that wasn't what was happening to number two. I can't say she's wrong or project the message that I don't believe her or that I think that she's wrong. And what that would mean in this context is that I can't then put off the vibe that that what she is doing is wrong, even if even if honestly, I feel like it is the third pillar is ask questions before making comments. And so, you know, I feel like you can you can assume the good intentions and you can not put off a message if I don't believe someone. But then if you just say, all right, but let me just kind of tell you my thoughts and then and then I want to hear what you have to say.
[00:27:15] So if I would have gone in there and just blasted her, so to speak, and told her all the reasons why, I think that that was not the right way to be enjoying Pirates of the Caribbean. But now I want to hear what her experience was, and that is the wrong way to do it. And I know I can go worst case scenario here, but I talk about it often. But I've literally had experiences before where someone like in that situation, me, for example, if I would just say, you know, I really think you should be more present. And I feel like what you're doing is going to the glare of your phone is going to bother people or whatever. And then if she were to say, hey, you know, my mom just texted me and one of my one of my siblings is sick, then I'm going to feel like, oh, my gosh, I'm so sorry. Do whatever you need to do. We need to have that attitude of you, do whatever you need to do because you're you you're a human. I think it was last week's episode I talked about the concept of control in a in an adult relationship, you can have control or you can have love, but I don't believe they can. Hopefully they're both evidently they both go together.
[00:28:08] So that questions before comments, you know, that's that I can say, hey, tell me more about what you're doing. And then my fourth pillar is to stay present. Don't go run into the bunker. You know, if I would have just even if I would have hung in the first three pillars, assume good intentions, not put off this vibe that she's wrong. And I would have asked questions, tell me more before making my own comments if they were even valid or necessary. But then the fourth pillar, if I would have said whatever doesn't matter, my opinion doesn't matter anyway. You're going to do whatever you're going to do. Then all of a sudden I've gone into victim mode and now I want her to come rescue me. I want her to say, no, no, no, I you're right. I shouldn't be doing that or that sort of thing. So you can see how unhealthy a conversation can be or how unproductive a conversation can be and all the various ways that it can venture off into this unproductive path or down this unproductive path. So in this scenario, I basically work through those pillars for her, so and then when when in that scenario, once I kind of felt like I had expressed myself or I felt heard and she didn't say, OK, you're being ridiculous or that sort of thing, then it was my turn to take accountability for what I had said.
[00:29:15] And that is where I realized it was more about me. And let me quickly circle back there is that she even said, OK, hey, all right, she's going to assume good intentions of me even saying that even though I was being a jerk, that assume good intentions. I wasn't trying to hurt her by saying, hey, pal, be more present. And then second pillar, she was so gracious and kind and didn't didn't say to me, you're ridiculous. Even though she probably felt like I was in pillar three. And she's asking me, hey, tell me tell me why that bothers you. Tell me more about that. And then her pillar for she stayed present. She didn't say, OK, I guess I won't do anything that I want to do because you don't want me to be on my phone. So we both felt heard. And when when we both felt hurt, when especially when I felt heard, man, it was my turn to take accountability and ownership for what I had said, because that was more about me. And here's the fascinating piece of this. This exchange is that had we been arguing or had she all of a sudden shut down or if I was going to force my I wanted her to understand that she needs to not be on the phone because of how I feel. Then all of a sudden, we're locked into what Sue Johnson, founder of Emotionally Focused Therapy, calls these demon dialogs.
[00:30:26] And then we get into the tit for tat or people do the freeze and flee or the the pursuit and withdrawal. There's these these dances that we get into. And what's so unproductive about those dances is she could have easily said, OK, well, you do this. And I said, OK, well, but you do this. And that's the tit for tat. And what are we not talking about when we're into these demon dialogs? We're not talking about the core issue or the core emotions or feelings that are underneath why we express ourselves the way we do. So she stayed present and and she heard me. So again, I felt hurt and I had to take ownership and accountability. Please do not skip this step of taking ownership of what what meaning you put to something. So I realize this is more about me. I realized it was about the times where I feel like she may spend more time looking at her phone. Then what, like looking at me and adoring me? I mean, it's not exactly that, but maybe not being as present with me, maybe when when we are together. And so this is such a common thing that couples are dealing with. So I was able to share that with her, that it was my anxious attachment style, it was my neede attachment style that was underneath my comment to her. It was my way of wanting to say, hey, don't you care about me? But boy, did I do it in the wrong way.
[00:31:39] So she stayed present. She heard me, she validated me. And then she dropped trou knowledge on me and saying that she appreciated me taking ownership of my comment and my feelings because her immediate thought when I had just blurted that out and boy, you could see how we could have got into a tit for tat really easily. And then I probably I maybe maybe I wouldn't have taken ownership of my role in that conversation. But she said that my proclamation going into the pirates of wanting to nap through the ride, I didn't really sound like I wanted to be very present. Right. But I didn't see that. So then once I felt heard, once I took ownership, that that, hey, you can be on your phone, you can do whatever you want to do. You are a differentiated, interdependent individual. And and I care about you regardless. I care about you. You don't have to be a certain way for me to love you, that you I want you to be you and I want us to be able to have these conversations out of curiosity and from a tell me more about that standpoint, because that's when we get to the good stuff. And this is that's why I wanted to go in so much detail about this little exchange. I just talk more about it than we did on the ride.
[00:32:43] But you can see how being able to have a framework to have the conversation that we left that conversation and we both felt heard we both felt like we took ownership or accountability of our part and we felt like we could we could we could understand the good intentions behind why I said this really silly thing and why she why she does the things that she does. She does them because that's who she is and she's human. She has her own experiences, as do as do I. And so we can have more productive conversations. We have this framework that isn't about tit for tat or back and forth or anyone trying to control the other ones, saying here's what you need to do on this ride, that kind of thing. So speaking of pirates, that also brought up a really fascinating thing to me, and that's this concept of nostalgia. So when I talked earlier in the episode, I mentioned that I did not go to Disneyland growing up. And so and I again, I'll own this, I think this is anything that can keep the gasp, the loud gasp sound effect. But I did grow up going to a couple of theme parks, Dollywood in Tennessee and I think a Six Flags in Texas when I visited my cousins one time. And so I knew roller coasters and those are exciting to me. So when I went to Disneyland for the first time as an adult, I was a little bit disappointed and I didn't think I thought it was full of all these amazing rides.
[00:34:07] I didn't realize it was more about nostalgia. So then I did a little bit of digging for this episode, and I found an excellent podcast called Speaking of Psychology. And there's a Dr. Christine, I think it's Vojtko talked about the role of nostalgia in psychology. It's in their episode ninety three. And does nostalgia have a psychological purpose? And she was asked by the interviewer, and if that's so good, the interviewer, the interviewer said your research has shown that nostalgia can be a stabilizing force and it can comfort us during times of change and transition. Can you explain that a bit more? And so Dr. Bochco said, yeah, change whether it's good change or negative change, we know it's stressful and change can be very difficult to grasp because in some sense, at a very deep level, change threatens us. And so it can be a little frightening because we're not one hundred percent sure that we can control our environment. So change can feel scary. So one of the most important aspects, she said, of being a healthy human is being able to have a sense that you're in control of things and our brain wants control. And that's why I talked about last week, that we can have control or love in adult relationships. I wasn't saying that control was why it's crazy.
[00:35:12] Somebody wants control and that's how we're wired, because we feel like if we don't have control that then we are going to die. I mean, to oversimplify it. So Dr. Bychkov said when things start to change either very substantially, such as major events in a person's life, getting married, getting a divorce, a new career, going back to school, graduating from school, it can often be comforting to have a nostalgic feeling for the past. That reminds us that although we don't know what the future is going to bring, we do know who we have been and who we really are at our core, and that is part of what nostalgia can do, she said. Nostalgia can be a very comforting emotion. It also brings back it stimulates memories of the times when we were accepted or loved unconditionally. You start to see the psychological component of nostalgia that oftentimes if someone goes back to this place in Disneyland and they wear their their favorite shirt and they put on their Disney ears and you see a lot of people with that and they're just all Disney, because Disney oftentimes represents a time where they felt like they had more control or they had more safety or there was more love. And so I can understand where that nostalgia comes because that is such a powerfully confronting phenomenon if we scratch that one. Right. I'm trying to read Dr. Bosco's quote and watch that one all together.
[00:36:24] But Dr. Bochco says that is such a powerfully comforting phenomenon, knowing that there was a time in life when we didn't have to earn our love or we did not or we didn't deserve it because we earned a certain amount of money or we were successful to a certain point, or that's what gave us our our value, she said. Our parents, for example, or siblings or friends, simply love this unconditionally. And that is a wonderfully comforting feeling when we're undergoing any kind of turmoil in our personal lives. So when you are going through these difficult experiences or going through change events in life, oftentimes our brain wants to go back to nostalgia. And so if you are a heavily nostalgic person, then I would imagine you've got some very, very comforting memories of your past. And then I talked a little bit last week about this concept called relational frame theory, where we will then take an emotion or a feeling and then we'll combine that with that in the same frame as a place maybe like Disneyland or a smell like homemade cookies or a sound where if we go in here, water the ocean, for example, to me, what a relational frame of comfort to go to the ocean and hear those waves on the beach to the point of where it's a happy place. And thankfully, my wife's as well. And so when we will often say that I would love to retire at the beach and then I have someone else say to me, oh, you don't want that because of the sand and the wind and the this and the that, that's where I love to bless their heart.
[00:37:47] That's not their experience, you know. But but that is one that I can put in this relational frame of goodness, so to speak, of that it does bring comfort and it helps me feel maybe more in control with my surroundings. Mindfulness, I put in my notes here, mindfulness coming out the wazoo, and it didn't auto correct Watsu, so I think I probably spelled that right, that would be a zero. So we drove through the night to get the Disneyland. We arrived at our hotel around 3:00 a.m. We pulled up. I was driving and I went to the front desk and you can literally see the lights on the front desk. It's open. It's all windows. But nobody was there. So the doors locked. This has ring a bell. I ring that bell and Man did I ring that bell about 15 minutes solid. I ring that bell. And it was one of those where you could see a room connected to the front desk. So I rang and rang. I found myself getting frustrated and I can only imagine that person was asleep in their room. But as much as I would start to notice my stress level or noticed myself getting frustrated, I didn't give in to it.
[00:38:49] I didn't react to it. I mean, I would notice it, acknowledge it. And then I would turn back to literally being very present and pushing the button, ringing the bell, smiling at my family as they looked out of the car, kind of like, what's up? And so I just noticed it. I didn't react to it. Mindfulness, remember, mindfulness is not trying to stop a thought. I want to say this every chance I get. People often say, I've tried mindfulness, but I can't I can't clear my mind. Well, nobody can. I mean, not that I'm aware of. So the mindfulness practice. Let me be let me just go over this. There any chance I get I use the app called Headspace. I don't get anything for that. In the app Headspace. The practice goes as follows. Typically, it's a guided meditation. There's a wonderful British guy named Andy who then says, all right, welcome back, sit in your chair and then start to breathe in through your nose and out through your mouth. Man, I feel calm just even saying that. And I just sat up in my chair, but breathing in through your nose and out through your mouth, and that is starting to lower your heart rate because remember, the higher your heart rate is elevated, the more of the stress hormone cortisol starts to get secreted, created. And when your brain gets cortisol, it thinks something's about to go down.
[00:39:59] So it starts to shut down the the the prefrontal cortex or the limbic system. It starts to shut down the part of your brain where you you have you have rational thought and it starts to fire up that Neanderthal brain, that amygdala. So as you get more elevated, as your heart rate raises, then you are actually going into more of this fight flight or free state. So one of the first things you're training your brain to do is to come back to calm and lower the heart rate, lower the cortisol so you can tap into that part of your brain that can think logically, which will allow you to be more present. And then you're in the Headspace app than Andy will often just go quiet. And that's the time where my brain starts to think and think and think often even thinking I don't have time to even do this mindfulness exercise. And then at some point he will say, OK, hey, gently acknowledge you're thinking and then come back to the breath. Think about breathing and just in through the nose, out through the mouth, or think about your do a body scan, feel your back against the chair, your your butt on the seat, your legs on the floor, your feet on the floor. And because what you're not doing when you're thinking or focusing on your breath or focusing on a body scan or listening to the sounds around you or the smells or whatever you can focus on.
[00:41:14] So again, your brain isn't clear, but you're not thinking about the thought. You're not ruminating about the negative thought. You're not worrying about the future that can cause anxiety. You're not giving in to the compulsion that follows the obsession with obsessive compulsive disorder. You are bringing yourself back to present over and over again. And yes, oftentimes you as soon as you come, you are not being present. Your brain immediately can go back to where it was, what it was thinking, what it was doing, and oftentimes will say, see, it didn't work, but that's the way our brain works. Your training the brain to be able to bring it back to the present moment. So I, I really feel like there were so many opportunities to be mindful. Mindfulness in long lines. I remember being at this place called the Pizza Press one night and I don't know if I've seen a line that long, but we were we were hungry. We were hangry and and we had already exhausted other options on where to eat, how quickly we could get back to a hotel and get food, lines everywhere. So that was one of the most mindfulness challenges I think I've taken on. And it worked. We made it through. We got the pizza, we ate. And it was it was amazing. adrenalin. When I'm at this when I'm waiting for this, reading this buzzer for 15 minutes, finally I hear somebody say out of nowhere, can I help you? And I jumped and there it was.
[00:42:37] And this one is a really funny thing that I've learned just from my office experience here is that after every session, I typically have to go to the bathroom and stay hydrated. There's probably too much information there. But then when I come back, I often say if my door open to my clients to come on in, I've got a little fridge that can grab a drink, that sort of thing. And so I will often not have heard them and feel like I'm only in the bathroom for a little short amount of time. So I come back in and I've got a client sitting on the couch, even though that's what I want them to do, that oftentimes I jump and it's one of the funniest things because now it's like, OK, I almost can wait for it. Give it about 20, 30 seconds and here comes the adrenaline and you can literally feel it through your you feel through your veins. And it's fascinating. Really quick side note. If you've ever done cryotherapy, which is that get into negative ninety in the negative two hundred degree temperatures, it's something that a lot of athletes do for recovery. I usually save the cryotherapy for any race over 50 miles, but when I do cryotherapy, it's it's a similar thing. So you will go in this negative 90 degree room and walk around a little bit and then from there enter a negative, sometimes one hundred eighty or two hundred degree room.
[00:43:44] And boy, you have to keep walking around and then you come out of that room, your core body temperature is just cold and all of your blood has gone to to save your your your life. It sits around your heart and it's really working to keep you alive. And then the experiences that I've been on, then they put you on an exercise bike and just have you barely start pedaling and then you feel it's so wild you feel the blood go from your heart, out through your body to your extremities. And part of that, the belief is that that will help clear out some of the lactic acid or some of the things that will make you sore as the days progressed. And I have found that I feel like I'm sore not as long. But my only point is that that is the feeling that you get if you really can if you get a good scare by your kids or anything like that. And if you can tap into that just being present in that moment, you can literally feel the adrenaline rush through your body. So one of the most fascinating things, I love it. So adrenaline, just a couple more things and then we'll wrap this one up. I also put a note that kindness wins, even though I was frustrated, especially in this experience with this person that wasn't there at 4:00 in the morning, even though I was frustrated, he apparently had walked down the street to get coffee, didn't leave a sign that said he would be right back.
[00:44:55] You know, none of those things. And I could have let him know all of those things. But I have a personal value of kindness or compassion or non confrontation. So that's what I turned toward. So now, if somebody has a core value of justice or order, meaning that they are an absolute rule follower, then perhaps it would have been more in line with their core values to let that person know that it would have been more helpful for future people. That might be showing up at 4:00 a.m. while he's getting coffee to know that. You'll be right back. So please leave a sign. But this is what's kind of fascinating. So check this out. If I was telling somebody that has this value of order or justice, if I were telling them, oh, you shouldn't have done that, you shouldn't have told them those things, then they're going to think, OK, cool story. But that's that that's who I am. Just like if I have this value of kindness or compassion and somebody is telling me and I'm just giving this example, but I think you can maybe see where I'm going. Think of all the times or somebody like you don't need to do you tell that person that they need to do whatever and it's something that you would never say or never do, then guess what? You don't have to do it.
[00:45:55] I mean, that is that's where I talk again about control. I remember having this experience well before my therapy days. I remember being on a business trip with someone and they were the ones saying, hey, you need to call that waiter over and you need to tell him that he needs to do this. And I remember having this moment where I thought, no, you can I mean, if that's what your experience would be. And this person that I used to travel with on occasion, they started to get frustrated with me because they now knew that I was going to say, oh, yeah, I don't care about that. Or but if you would like to, then that would be fine. So I think that taps into that. If you are trying if you were trying to do something that is not in line with your core values, it's kind of falls into the ranks of what we call an act socially compliant goal. And you're doing it because you think you should or you're supposed to or you have to, and your motivation is going to be weak and ineffective because it goes against your sense of self or who you are as a person. So but if I'm tapping into my Value-Based Goal, is it the right thing to do? Well, is there a right thing to do? And that's why I bring up this example of I kindness.
[00:46:54] For me, that's a value, compassion, connection, humor, those things. So if I'm tapping into those, then, man, he scared me. That was funny. I'm going to tell him that he's saying, I'm sorry that I was I wasn't here. And I'm saying, hey, no problem. Now, now we're here. Now we're now we're having an experience. Now we're having a connection. How's your night been? You know, what time do you start? How often do you take a walk? And are there people often in my scenario or is this completely unexpected? So kindness. So in that scenario, I felt so. Much better walking away from that situation, even though it was frustrating, waiting for 15 minutes, I threw just a few random sampler notes here that I'll maybe just blast through. And these if you have questions or thoughts or think that they would make a better podcast or another podcast, shoot me an email. But I saw somewhere I put on here turow's and being angry, ADHD and angry. And I just saw in in a brief mention on a video that angry or being angry and hungry was a very strong symptom of ADHD. And I thought that was kind of fascinating because my family will make fun of me constantly that I am the nicest guy in the world until we placed our order for food.
[00:48:06] And then I just I get hangry. And now that I'm aware of it, I notice I am angry. I comment on the fact I'm hungry. I jokingly say I am going to not keep talking about being hungry while I try to stay present. So I thought that was interesting that sure enough, when when man what. I would get angry. Hungry that it was it was hard to not start to become a little bit angry. Sunk cost. If you're familiar with that concept. That's the old I've invested two million bucks in this project that is losing money repeatedly. But I'm going to put another million in because while I've already put two million in, you know, it's a sunk cost. That's a big dramatic example from the business world that I had a client that I worked with at one point, that that was what we were processing in a session. But I also talked with a good friend of mine that I used to travel to Japan with. He was a financial guy, Scott, and he would often talk about the concept of sunk cost and how we can even apply that to you. Pay for a meal. But now you're full and we often think we don't want to waste. But you've already paid for the meal. So at that point, it doesn't necessarily do one any good to continue to pile that food away because it's already been purchased.
[00:49:16] Or I think about that. If you are about to go on a trip to Disneyland, this might be the or any theme park or any vacation. And if you have not already laid out a budget and if you don't already have a value of boundaries or order or rules or those sort of things, then I feel like there needs to be some acceptance that, look, when you pay money for admission to a park, then, boy, try your it can still feel very frustrated. Can't believe I paid a hundred and something dollars to get in here, you know, and now we have a line and now we have this normal thoughts or human. But boy, those are incredible opportunities to come back to the present moment and just be present. The money has been spent, the present the food has been purchased to be present. If the planning wasn't done in advance to have cheaper food or snacks or that sort of thing, then the complaining of it is in a productive, workable thought be present. So I thought that was kind of fascinating. Real quick smile at the parent who you notice that seems overwhelmed. And I remember being that parent and my wife and I were handing out smiles for free on this trip. And you start to really recognize that. I mean, I remember being there with the kids in the stroller and somebody drops an ice cream and that sort of thing.
[00:50:25] And so sometimes a smile is all that they need. I just put a note on here. You'll dry off eventually. You know, again, talk about being present. I feel like it was that acceptance doesn't mean apathy, principal, that once I accepted the fact that I was going to get soaked on the ride, then once I accepted it, then I wasn't trying to contort my body and pulling things in my back to the point of where and then being angry. If I got wet, it was like be present, accept the fact that on the water ride I most likely will get wet and then enjoy the heck out of it. I'm not going to Swan dove into the water, but when I got wet, I got wet. Because you're going to dry. You really are. You'll dry eventually. And I talked to I wrote a note here about an experience in a line where I turned toward my value of knowledge. I noticed that we were getting a little bit worn out and there was a little bit of silence between the four of us in line. And the other three people in line were probably fine with it. But my anxious attachment style, which I want to take ownership of, was constantly saying if everybody isn't talking, they must be mad at me. How fascinating is that? Right. I'm a therapist. I'm a pro.
[00:51:27] Fifty one years old and very secure in my and myself. But the brain is going to do whatever the heck it wants at times and that good old, deeply rooted and anxious attachment style from childhood is saying their silence. Are they thinking I should be carrying the conversation? So in those moments I turned, I noticed that my anxious attachment style was fired up. And so then I just noticed it, acknowledged it, didn't try to push it away, didn't try to change that thought, didn't try to say don't think those things noticed it, and then just dropped the rope of the tug of war with the anxious attachment and then just pivoted toward a value of knowledge. And so I found myself continually Googling a ride and then just talking about fun facts about the ride. And a lot of times that we would be engaged in a pretty fun conversation. So turn toward your values when you are noticing the anxiety, the depression, the overthinking. And and I already covered this one. But, man, just give yourself permission to scream. Go big. Be present, have an amazing time, and on that note, have an amazing week. I appreciate you sticking with me this long. Those are the things that this therapist learned from his trip to Disneyland. And I would love if you have additional thoughts or questions or your experiences, comment wherever you're seeing this on a podcast app or on YouTube channel or shoot me a tweet. Email firstname.lastname@example.org. I'd love to hear your experiences and I'd love to talk about those at some point as well. All right, everybody, thanks for joining me.
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