Tony welcomes his daughter McKinley (Mackie) back to The Virtual Couch. Mackie talks about what it took for her to shed the “shoulds” in her life, “you should go to college, you should be a teacher, you should, you should, you should!” and how she ultimately took action on following a path she knew she secretly wanted since middle school. Mackie shares how her depression clouded her dreams even when her parents said that they supported whatever she wanted to do in life and what, if anything, they could have done differently to help her through some of her darkest days. You can find her at Ivory Salon Suites here https://www.ivorysalonandsuites.com/ or follow her professional page on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/beautybymackie/


Visit http://tonyoverbay.com/magnetic to learn more about Tony’s Magnetic Marriage program, or visit http://tonyoverbay.com to take Tony’s free parenting course, or to learn more about his best-selling book; or only recovery program “The Path Back.” And please subscribe to “Waking Up to Narcissism,” Tony’s brand new podcast, which is part of The Virtual Couch podcast network. 

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[00:00:00] Hey, everybody, welcome to episode two hundred and eighty four. The virtual couch, I am your host, Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and author, speaker, husband. All those things. But I'm also the father of four amazing, wonderful children. And coming up on today's episode, I have interviewed my daughter McKinley, a.k.a. Mackey, a.k.a. Mack. She is twenty one, I believe, and I know that sounds like a joke. But holy cow, I have joked about the approximate ages of my kids and my wife are so long that I honestly question myself. But she was born in nineteen ninety nine, and so just to make sure that I got this right, I went and looked up her age on a birthday calendar on the internet because I was so in my head that I was going to get her age wrong. But that led me down a little bit of a rabbit trail. So Mackey has six hundred and eighty five million five hundred and eighty four thousand seconds old, or eleven million four hundred and twenty six thousand four hundred minutes, or one hundred and ninety thousand hours, almost 8000 days, eleven thousand weeks, two hundred and sixty months or twenty one years old. Eight months, twenty one days old, which makes me, by the way, I couldn't help myself. I am one point six billion seconds old or twenty seven million minutes. That is kind of mind blowing. That translates out to fifty one years, nine months in twenty one days old, which is insane.

[00:01:16] But I digress. So today's episode is so good. And yes, I am biased because I interview my daughter, but I have received plenty of amazing feedback from the episodes that Mackey has been on the past. She's come on openly, and she has talked about her struggles with anxiety and depression, and she was also on a panel of guests, which is one of my favorite episodes of all time where we were a few months into the pandemic, and she was there with my oldest daughter, Alex and Alex's husband, Mitch and my wife. Her lone appearance on the virtual couch and my nephew Connor, which was He's a hilarious individual. So today, though, I want you to know we go really, really deep. Mackie just graduated from cosmetology school, and she has taken a job at an absolutely incredible salon in South Jordan, Utah, that just opened up a new location. And it's called the Ivory Salon Suite, and I will have the link to the the location and how to book with my daughter in the show notes. And I would highly encourage you to go book with Mackie because she's honestly very, very good at what she does. You'll kind of get a feel for that in the interview today, but we often here's what I like that we talked about today is that, like so many of us often do, we take the job, we follow the career or we get the degree that we feel like we're expected to, because that is what our parents or our friends or our church or our community says that we should do.

[00:02:36] And I often say nobody likes to be should on. And when you're doing something because you think you're supposed to, that is called a socially compliant goal. It goes against who you are at your core because it just goes against your, your own sense of self or process of unfolding or all these other cool psychological terms. But when you are living your life by a socially compliant goal, then you are often just going to continue to kick the can down the road. You'll do things later, you will. You'll try to be happy or later. Right now, you just got to get the work, you got to plow through your job. There's this concept of where you, you go to work so that you can then come home and enjoy yourself or get to the weekend and have fun. And I don't talk about this often, but I'm kind of convinced that that might be just one of those stories that are own brain is telling us that we feel like we can't do what we really want to do at our core. Because what I often hear in my office is that people will say, Well, if I really did what I enjoy, then all of a sudden it would it would become a job and I wouldn't enjoy it anymore. And I would often say, I'm talking probably for years, or I would say, No, I hear you.

[00:03:39] That makes sense. And then one day it hits me that, Oh, I actually did 10 years in a career that I absolutely did not enjoy. And now I'm pushing 17 or 18 years in a career that I absolutely love and adore. And so when you love your job or when you're doing something you feel pretty passionate about, and that doesn't mean I love every minute of every day, but when this is something that really speaks to you, that you're passionate about. Then when you come home, you're still on fire. When you hit the weekend, you, you still you're just excited to do things. And I often find that people that are living these socially compliant lives, socially compliant goals and doing things because they just think they have to hit the end of the day, there's exhausted, you know, and they say, OK, you know, I'll do those things I always wanted to do later. I'll do them. When I get caught up on things, I'll do them. After I get a lot of sleep, I'll do them when I make a little bit more money or when I get married, or when the kids are older, or when the kids are out of the house, or when we get the new car or the nicer place. And that is just kicking the can down the road when there is so much life to be lived, right? This very second. So Mackey was just passionate about the the going to cosmetology school, but she was afraid to take action on it.

[00:04:49] We're going to talk a lot about that today, and I want you to know this is she. She would. She's going to talk openly about the fact that she knew that she had that support from her parents. But even when we support. Them early and often that they can literally still do and think and feel whatever they're going to do, think and feel because we're all our own unique individual people. So I could say all day long, Mac, I'm a therapist. Come on, do what you want to do. Find your dream and passion. And I love what she goes into today, where she talks a lot about saying, I mean, I heard you, but I still felt like I might disappoint you. So we need to understand that every one of our kids, our spouse that we are, all are own unique individuals going through this thing for the first time. This thing meaning life in the moment that you come upon today, you've never experienced that before based on all the situations that you bring to the table right now. So it becomes even more important that we are there for each other, that we hear each other, that we're not trying to control each other, that we're not trying to tell each other what they should do. Because how on earth do you really know what another person should do when you have never been that person? So we, you know, we talk about how teenagers, when they truly don't feel like their dreams or their goals or their hopes or their passions are even an option can often feel hopeless or stuck or helpless.

[00:06:01] So as parents, it is so important to know how to encourage your kids to find their path, but to know again that even when you do your best to be supportive that they all, they're going to have their own views of who, that they think that they're supposed to be. So I say so often that you can either have love or control in adult relationships, not both. And I feel like in today's episode, we really speak to the fact that you can even express love and somebody else can still push you away. And that isn't necessarily about you. Everybody is again, they're on their own path. They're trying to find themselves. But I guarantee you that the more time and energy you devote to showing your spouse or your kids or anybody that you care about, that really matters to you, that you love them, that you're there for them, and that when and if they do hit a breaking point or rock bottom or whatever that is, that they will know that they can come back to you because you hear them, because you see them, you love them and you are there for them in whatever capacity that they need. It does not mean OK. See, I knew you'd come crawling back to me looking for advice because I'm telling you if you put that energy into the people around you.

[00:07:08] Number one, they aren't going to come back looking for help. In fact, almost likely do the opposite. They'll probably try to do everything they can do to not come back. And here's where that here's where things get kind of interesting from a psychological perspective. We have that whole model backwards. We think that we have to push somebody out of the nest in order for them to fly. Now that might work with birds or in books, or maybe even written in stories by authors that are trying to process their own feelings of abandonment from their own parental figures. But we actually need to do the opposite the birds, so to speak under our care, need to know that they can be in the nest. Until that they believe that they are ready to fly. And they need to know that they can come back to the nest if they don't feel safe, or that if they're going to go through some rough patches in life that they know that they can come back to their secure base or their secure attachment and know that somebody has their back. And I often feel like when I start talking about things like this, a parent will say, Well, yeah, but if I just if I don't shove them out of the nest, they're going to sit here and stay at home and play video games forever. Well, here's here's the part that we're missing.

[00:08:09] The fact that they are afraid to go out and try to find themselves might be because you put so much pressure on them that they're going to do it wrong. You better not mess this up. You better, not let me down. You know, this is so important right now, what you do. And so no wonder if that person feels like I'm scared to death. I'm going to do it wrong. Then they're going to cope with things like video games, social media, pornography, alcohol, you name it, as an unhealthy coping mechanism because they feel like if I screw this up, my parents are going to abandon me forever. And so then eventually the parent does boot them out of the house, and then they have to go figure it out. And the parent says, See if I never would have booted you out of the house. This never would have worked. And that whole model is backwards. It's broken. If we've been nurturing a relationship with our kids where they know that they can come to us with anything, and I'm not talking about the hollow kind of, Hey Champ, you know, you can come to me with anything, but then they come to you and say, Wreck the car or I'm smoking pot, or I failed out of school. And then we say, Are you fucking kidding me? You know, is that the? So are we really? Can they really come to us with anything? So I feel like oftentimes when the kid is still in the basement playing video games, they're paralyzed because they're so afraid that they may go out and do it wrong, which then only frustrates the parent at that point.

[00:09:20] That's where I feel like the parent needs to say, Hey, I'm here, you know, I've got your back. What do you want to do? What can I help you figure out so that they know that they can go out there and try their best? And if they don't succeed, that's even a loaded word that they know they can come back and say, All right, well, that one didn't work. So what are we going to do next instead of us feeling like we have to just push them out of the nest? So remember, this isn't about you. It's about them. And if you feel like it's your job to throw your bird out of your nest or else all the other birds will think you're not a good bird parent, or if you feel like you have to throw the bird out of the nest because let's my parents threw me out of the nest, I seem to be OK. You're working from a flawed model, but I so digressed. But. I really felt good to get off my chest, so let's get to the today's episode with my daughter, Mackie, and please check out the links in the show notes and go by and say hi to her and get your herded as the kids say from my daughter, Maggie. All right, let's get to today's episode.

[00:10:28] Come on in and take a seat.

[00:10:35] So annunciate, hey, come from your diaphragm, I

[00:10:39] Don't know how to do that.

[00:10:40] Loud project your voice, Mackey. Ok, OK. Welcome back to the virtual couch. Thank you. You know that you now become the most interviewed guest in the history of the podcast. It's kind of fun for me. It is right. I was thinking about that. At first, I was going to say, You've tied my intern slash associate Nate Christianson and Dr. Jennifer Finlayson, five world renowned sex therapist and relationship coach with three times. But then you were also part of the covert kids I was. And that was, yeah, it was an ensemble cast, but you were a part of it. So technically, yeah. So this is your fourth episode. You feel like a big deal. I know, right? I've been looking forward to recording this one for a while. Yeah. And we were talking about things leading up to this and we could go a lot of different directions. And I think things could get really deep. They could get heavy. And I think that's that's we're going to keep it real. As the kids say, kids don't really say that anymore, do they? Do they sometimes sometimes. Oh, no. Ok. In your previous appearances, we've talked a little bit about anxiety and depression. And and so I get a lot of emails. I forward some of them to you. Those are fun, right? When people say that they really identified with things that you've said or I think in particular, I get ones from moms who have said that they believe and listen to our episodes with their daughters. What's that like, by the way, when you get that kind of feedback?

[00:11:59] It's nice because I like it's scary to be vulnerable and to put things out there, which I have done a decent amount at this point. And so it's just nice to feel like at least a couple of people have taken something from

[00:12:14] It more than a couple of people.

[00:12:16] But it's just it's nice. Yeah, and it's just nice because it just is reassuring that everyone is going through things and there's you can just be nice and helpful and all those good things.

[00:12:26] People really are too going through a lot of things and sometimes and this is going to sound silly, but I forget, and I really do at times if I bring on a new client, how much I need to validate and say, Oh, I have dealt with that before. And and I find myself not wanting to say that at times because I don't want the person to feel like I'm dismissing their experience, right? But then I remember that they're coming in here, sometimes feeling like they've never told anybody about their experiences.

[00:12:50] The only one that's felt it, and it's like, No, everybody goes through.

[00:12:53] Absolutely. Absolutely. And I still feel like I would say that I have this thing on my shoulder called Holy crap o meter. And I and I tell people, it's not going to move trust me because they will say, I bet you've never heard this or this is going to sound so crazy. And sometimes I think, huh? I wonder if this will be something that I've never heard. But no, not really. Yeah, but not even to dismiss them. But you're right. Everybody wants to feel like they're not alone or crazy or that sort of thing. All right. Well, the reason I was so excited about this is there are so many things that have gone on since we last spoke because we last spoke. I think you weren't in college yet. Yeah. Other than the COVID kids episode, yeah. But so when we last left, it was probably finishing up your senior year and you were trying to figure out what to do next and what do you remember about that? What do you remember about wanting to do or thinking you wanted to do as you were wrapping up?

[00:13:48] Honestly, I didn't think about it a lot. I didn't. I I knew growing up. I feel like from the time I was like 13 or 14, I wanted to do here, OK? And that was always like in the back of my head. And so I'd always say it was like my backup option because I didn't want to admit that it was what I actually wanted to do because I was scared of the stigma. Ok. Which is dumb.

[00:14:09] I even think as you're saying this right now, I didn't realize it was that early on that you wanted to.

[00:14:13] Oh yeah, it was. As soon it was like the first as soon as I like started looking into makeup and like getting into that stuff, I was like, Oh, I like this guy. Yeah, I care about this and I want to do this. And so I knew, like, pretty early on. But then, yeah, I got scared of the dumb hair school girl stigma thing, which is so stupid, OK, but I cared too much about that and then went through a lot of crap and then didn't really care about my future in general and then didn't think about it too much after that.

[00:14:40] Yeah.

[00:14:40] So, yeah, I wasn't really thinking about it.

[00:14:42] The hair school stigma? Yes. When did you start feeling that?

[00:14:46] I feel like in high school, people would talk about it and make assumptions about people and say things like, Oh, well, there's some hair school or there's going to do that, or I bet she just goes to hair school. I like stuff like that. And it was always just tied with like. That means you're dumb and you can't do other things and whatever. And so I totally let that get to me. Yeah, I was like, Well, I'm not dumb. Like, I'm not going to like I. And I totally listen to that, which is stupid because you actually you can't be dumb if you're going to go through hair school, it's not as easy as you think.

[00:15:11] I agree with what you say that and first of all, do you feel like you went to you went. How long was it two years a year and a half?

[00:15:19] With COVID, it was like a year and a half.

[00:15:20] Yeah, with COVID. That was a whole other experience.

[00:15:22] I on for a little bit. So it's like a year and a half six hundred

[00:15:25] Hours and you. And hours and you had to do a lot in the classroom as well as actual styling, hair

[00:15:33] Cutting in clients, yeah. Four of the five

[00:15:36] Days, yeah, which I didn't know. That's how it works. Maybe even for anybody that's listening to this, right?

[00:15:41] You OK? I thought it was going to be in a classroom the whole time, but you're taking clients more than you're not.

[00:15:46] I mean, how and how soon were you starting to see clients? This is what kind of blew my mind. So it

[00:15:51] Was eight

[00:15:51] Weeks, eight weeks in. And then you're cutting people's hair and it's more than just cutting people's hair.

[00:15:55] Yeah, yeah.

[00:15:56] Yeah, you were coloring hair, all of it. All of that. Do you remember your first experience with somebody?

[00:16:02] I don't remember my my first experience is mom.

[00:16:05] Oh, OK. Yeah.

[00:16:07] So it was like different than I don't remember my very first client. Yeah, but I remember like those early stages and just like trying to fake the confidence, you know?

[00:16:17] Yeah. And I even think about this. We'll probably talk about some of this to you. And I have had a lot of conversations around even the similarities, it seems like from therapist and cosmetologist. Yeah.

[00:16:26] How funny is it? It was surprising to me, like I knew people tell their hairstylist everything, but I didn't. That means everything, and I love it. I love that part of it.

[00:16:32] Like when you're talking everything you're talking about, they're feeling like they aren't a good parent or marriage issues or things about addiction.

[00:16:39] They told anyone else like. Yeah, I hear it all. Yeah, which is fun. Yeah. Yeah. Like, it's just, yeah.

[00:16:46] Would you ever feel, though, like you needed to give advice? Or what was that like for you?

[00:16:51] I don't know how to give advice. It's like, I'm not good at it, but I feel like people like they ask for it. But I think more than anything, everyone just wants to be listened to and to be heard. So I feel like for the most part, it's just like listening and validating and that aspect just building a connection there. That's more important than,

[00:17:08] Yeah,

[00:17:09] The advice that I potentially can try

[00:17:11] To give. No, I love it. And I love when you were just saying there that you were saying, I have to pretend to have the confidence, and I've talked on my podcast before about when I first started seeing clients. I would have this moment where I think what would a real therapist say? And then,

[00:17:23] Yeah, I feel like I'd be like, Yeah, I would like someone who actually knew what they were doing, say right now and then

[00:17:28] Over time, I would think, Wait, I am a real therapist. Do you remember having a moment where then you thought, OK, wait, no, I do know what I'm doing. Or did this happen over time?

[00:17:36] Yeah, I feel like it wasn't like a light bulb moment or anything, but just, Oh, OK,

[00:17:40] Ok, I'm doing this. I'm getting so far ahead. So if we go back to. So you always thought that that was your Plan B, but you were worried about it for the stigma of cosmetology.

[00:17:48] So I always said I'd always say this whole go be a teacher, I'm going to go do that. I always had this other like legit college thing that I had in mind. And then I would say, and then maybe I'll get my cosmetology license, like, maybe I'll do that, or maybe I'll think about that. Like, I never was like, Yes,

[00:18:02] I'm doing this, but you're telling me when we were even talking about before we hit record that you deep inside said, I'm going to do that.

[00:18:09] Yeah. It was like, I will. This will happen regardless, and that will be my primary, like my main thing that I'm going to do primarily always. But then I'll have this other cover

[00:18:20] Almost to be the teacher who can also cut hair. Exactly. We also in a little pre-interview we talked about, OK, how deep do we want to get and why not get deep right now? This is the funny part where I said, we can also edit it. So now the next part of I'm saying, and then you lived happily ever after, then you'll know that maybe we had a big, big part, right? But so deep where we were going with that was I said, Man, man, can you remember mom and I driving out to college with you? And I remember we were I felt, honestly, I felt like leading up to the days before you left. I feel like we registered knowing that you might not go and we even paid for your apartment and stuff, knowing you might not go right around and come back. And I remember being like an hour outside of of Rexburg. Yeah, and I remember because the freeway went a different way, and I remember having the conversation with you where you were even saying, and you know what? And I might we might get there and turn right around, and we were saying, Yeah, we might. Oh, man. So what do you remember about that summer leading up to leaving? And were you going to leave or you're not going to leave? And what led into that?

[00:19:23] I just remember, like, I was not in a good place. I was miserable. I basically my whole my senior year of high school was mentally was rough, like I one of the worst years I think I've ever had type thing. And so I was like, I remember that was really hard. And then I graduated thinking that that would solve all my problems and I'd feel great. And then I didn't like a week after graduation. I'm still sad and miserable and don't know what I'm doing and just, yeah, really had no idea what was next. And did you

[00:19:53] Feel because you didn't know what was next, that something was wrong with you?

[00:19:56] Oh, yeah, OK. I was like, everyone. Like all my friends know they're going to go do this and they're going to do this and they want to study this and they have these plans. And I was just like, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what I'm going to do. And. So I remember, like towards the end of my senior year, finally just being like, OK, I like logically, the next step is college. Yeah. And I was like, I don't want to just sit at home, stare at my ceiling all day, every day.

[00:20:19] So which this is the part that I thought got deep was because that honestly and we haven't talked about this, I think directly. But mom and I, that's what we were worried about was if you stay here, you're going to stay inside and just stare at your ceiling.

[00:20:31] But then that's where I was. Mentally, that's what my life was.

[00:20:34] But then every time that we would say, but we don't want to go, do this and don't you want to go away and don't you want to?

[00:20:39] I didn't want to do anything, and I was telling you earlier like that was that was stemming from the fact that I genuinely didn't feel like I had a future and I didn't feel like there was a next step for me. And because of those previous years, I felt I was shocked that I made it to 18 and then 19 and then 20. And so every year is like, Oh my gosh, like, I actually am doing this, and I actually have to think about what's next because I didn't think I would make it that far. Yeah.

[00:21:03] And I was just so sad because and what I appreciated, what we were talking about earlier was it wasn't like you had a look at me. Am I just trying to seek my own validation? But you, you had you had opportunities. But then we were talking about, but there's so much more that goes into it. If there's some, there's there's some history of depression in our family. So if there's some good old chemical things going on, that's just and then and then it really is. I always say that it's nature and nurture and birth order and DNA and abandonment and rejection, right? Because then if you get in some relationships that aren't good and those

[00:21:36] Aren't right and those

[00:21:38] Are things that you signed up for and nobody gets into a relationship thinking, I think this is going to be pretty crummy. Maybe they start good, right?

[00:21:44] It's pretty bad. Ok. So, yeah, so it's like all of it was just a lot of crappy things. Yeah. Going on with that rude of just yeah. History of depression. Like knowing there's some chemical imbalance. Yeah, trying to figure that stuff out already, which is hard enough, like just trying to deal with that, but then having the crappy life things happening on top of it. Yeah. So then, yeah, I remember like that, especially that that summer before I left it, the guy was registered for school and whatever, but I didn't want to be and I didn't want to go and I didn't want to do anything. And I just remember because I was telling you, like just I remember lots of nights where it was just like, I was not OK. Yeah. And I was not like doing smart things to cope and turning to very unhealthy things. And then I vividly remember, just like pleading with God to just let me go just that. I felt like every night I'd fall asleep, just come on. Just let me go. And I've done that breaks my heart. Yeah. It was hard, and I know people feel that if people experience that, and so that was every single night. And so then it got to a point before I left for school so I can just sit here and and plead and be miserable and stare at my ceiling, or I can try to cling to this last resort potential thing that could kickstart my future a little bit. So then I embraced this. Ok, I'm going to go be a teacher and I'm going to go do that. And I held on to that. It was literally all I had left because I to some extent, I felt like it was all I had left. And so I just ran with it. I was like, OK, I'm just going to go, I'm just going to go. And I wasn't even thinking past that.

[00:23:09] But I think it's important. And I think that's where if somebody is saying, but what if this doesn't work out or what if and

[00:23:14] I didn't have it in me to even think that it was just, Hey, I'm just going to get there. I'm just going to get there. Yeah. And then I didn't know what was going to happen next, but I'm just going to go and

[00:23:22] Do you think and I know it's so hard to I think we were even talking earlier about when I was saying, when people say, man, I wonder what would have happened if and I would say, Well, yeah, who knows. But then not a productive thought. And I'm about to say, but let's go there for a minute. Right. So for the sake of other people, I wonder if when you're having these thoughts of, you know, it'd be nice to not even wake up. I mean, I'm in this where I say often that when people come and tell me that they don't, they've never thought of suicide or something. I think I don't know if that's even normal. And as a therapist, we talk about, but have you ever had the plan and it's going to happen this way at this time and this that's when things get a little more real. But when people have the, you know, if I got hit by a meteorite tonight, that's OK. Or if I just don't wake up, I think that's more normal than people people realize. Yeah, but then when you hear you and I love that you're laying out the part where you always had this Plan B. I wonder if you had really felt like that would have been plan a if that would have helped earlier.

[00:24:16] Yeah. Like it's that thing where no way to know. Yeah, because that wasn't the case, you know? But I feel like there's definitely a chance it would have just helped with motivation and hope and just knowing that I could potentially do something that I would like doing. I feel like that could have motivated me a little bit.

[00:24:34] Yeah. Well, and that's what I'm saying again, for the sake of those who are listening and who have teenagers or 20 somethings or whoever it is, that's where I feel like I just want to say, Yeah, it wouldn't necessarily if you're 16, 17 year old is really depressed and you just say, No, no, what do you really want to do? I know it's not that easy because I still feel like I know and I like what you're saying about you could even still say, Well, this is what I want to do, but you're still going to feel all that and validation from your peers, right?

[00:25:00] It doesn't just put everything else away. No, but I do definitely think that, yeah, it adds some hope. Into a life that feels like that's not anymore. Yes, I don't know. Yeah, it's definitely something to think about and that could be helpful, potentially.

[00:25:15] So for anyone listening, especially the parents, they just say No, really? Tell me more. Not what? I think you'd be happier, right?

[00:25:23] Ok. And then maybe just, yeah, anything you can do to head into that direction, I feel like couldn't hurt.

[00:25:27] Yeah, just even make it more.

[00:25:30] I feel like it seemed like it's achievable and it's realistic because in my head, it wasn't. Yeah, but that was my mind doing like I had made it this. We're not going to do that.

[00:25:38] Yeah, which is funny. So then because I don't know, do you remember when mom and I were? When do you when do you remember when we were really saying, no, really? If you want to go to cosmetology school, go.

[00:25:49] Yeah, no. So I remember. So I went to college. Yes, and I stuck it out for I ended up doing it being like a year and a half. Yeah, ish. But I I sucked at it. I didn't go to class. I was getting horrible grades, which isn't like, like in high school. I got good grades, like I was a good student and in college I was not like, I. I did the bare minimum. I hated every second of it. Like I remember,

[00:26:11] There were times where mom and I would think, Oh, OK, this sounds good because one of the times you took a class and was the elementary education and you really were going to be able to color and cut out things like construction paper. Yeah. And I thought, that's pretty cool.

[00:26:23] So I'd have moments where I was like, OK, like, I could get on board with this, like I can color. I can do those things. But I was just like, Yeah, I hated every second of it, wasn't doing a good job, and the whole time I feel like I was doing a little bit better. Mentally sure.

[00:26:37] Because you were staying out there.

[00:26:38] Yeah, I stuck it out. Like I, a few people like found a couple of people that I found, yeah, I found a couple of really good people that I didn't even know. People could be like that. Good of people didn't know the friends that existed like that. So it's like, I figured that out. Got those people. And so it's again, just that hope thing. I was OK. I wasn't perfect, but I was OK.

[00:26:57] And we still get calls sometimes.

[00:26:59] Yeah, yeah.

[00:27:01] I remember we went, Hey, Mac, and you're here waiting to hear if you're like, Hey, what's up? Like, Hey, hey, everything's great. Or if it was like a little pause, Mike Mackey, you're OK. It's like, Oh, no, we never said, Oh no, I'm there.

[00:27:14] You know, in your head would be a little bit,

[00:27:17] Oh, never, but.

[00:27:20] And so I was like, everything was OK. And then so then I was entertaining the idea of the cosmetology stuff more seriously to myself. Cool part

[00:27:29] Was that there was a really good school in your in

[00:27:32] Rexburg, and I know that I learned about it and I was like, OK.

[00:27:36] And then, you know, people that were already going there, or was it seriously just a whole other world? It was a

[00:27:41] Whole other thing. Yeah, but then I found out that it existed and I was like, Huh? Interesting. And then I remember I just been thinking, I just been thinking about it more seriously and from like I looked on their website and I looked into it and I was like reading into all this stuff, trying to figure out, like, Could I afford this? And could I like on my own? Could I just go? Ok, so do you want to say I didn't want to tell you guys I didn't want to make you like interesting?

[00:28:04] So even though we're saying we'll do whatever you want to do? You're thinking, I probably still need to do this

[00:28:08] On my own. I'm going, How can I make this work? Like looking into it, trying to figure it out because I had no hair. Probably I was like, he'd never supported me. No hair. No, no. So then I remember just I remember having just the worst day. I was like feeling ready, ready to give up again, like I was in that mindset. And I remember calling you guys and just kind of throwing it out there, entertaining the idea. I don't know if you remember this all, but I vividly remember.

[00:28:34] I think I know where we're going with this.

[00:28:36] I've been looking into this. I kind of, you know, I let you

[00:28:38] Finish this sentence before I was, Yes, please.

[00:28:40] No, you literally didn't. I was so surprised. Like, literally because I did the whole thing where I made it so dramatic and I was like, I've been thinking and I do like, what if I did all this stuff? And then I finally spit out, just like cosmetology school and you're like, Yep, let's do it. Like, literally, it's

[00:28:55] Probably like sitting there going,

[00:28:56] Yeah, and then and I'm like sobbing. Like, I end of the world to me,

[00:29:00] Like, Oh, I do remember this

[00:29:00] Man. And within the week, I think literally I was at this

[00:29:05] Like financial aid going

[00:29:07] Out, meeting with people, talking about

[00:29:09] It. Oh, I do remember mom and I were just pumped.

[00:29:12] Yeah. And but even then I signed up and I still felt there going to be so upset. They're going to be so disappointed because I'm not going to college. I'm not getting like,

[00:29:19] Ok, because, yeah, because you were still going to go to college. Oh, that's

[00:29:22] Right. Because then I stuck with the college, with the BYU-I stuff. I stuck with that for a few semesters. Waste of time, waste of money, again failing my classes.

[00:29:30] I do want to say that was funny because mom and I at that point were just saying, OK, we want to support her. But deep inside it was, you know, you quit right now. Mac, you know, money, college kids.

[00:29:39] I was like, No, I got this. I was like, I'm going to get my business degree.

[00:29:42] I'm like, You could be a more cosmopolitan.

[00:29:46] I don't know why I didn't want to do it. I don't know. I did. Sorry about that. Oh, it's OK. That's right. waste of money there,

[00:29:51] It was worth it, Maggie. Sure.

[00:29:53] Yeah. So I

[00:29:54] Mom and I love Top Ramen,

[00:29:56] So it was

[00:29:58] That

[00:30:00] Anyways. Yeah. And then finally. Eventually dropped all of the college stuff and then just stuck with the hair school and embraced that. Yeah, and ran with that.

[00:30:13] Do you remember ever did you ever feel like it was a mistake once you were there?

[00:30:17] Honestly, I didn't feel like it was a mistake, but I definitely had doubts and moments where I was. What if I can't do this? What if I suck at this? And what if I dropped out of college and I'm here and the money's already been paid and there's no going back? And what if I don't like it? What if it sucks? What if I just suck at it and was like, What if I can't, you know, like, I definitely

[00:30:35] Have moments that, yes, you set me up for my my acceptance and commitment therapy moment, where at that point I feel like you were pointed toward a pretty value based thing. It mattered to you. And even there, when we say, OK, I'm going for it, our brain will. One hundred percent say, What if I'm no good at it? What if I suck? What if I? And that's where

[00:30:52] You guys hate that I'm doing what you know, right?

[00:30:54] And then you probably get annoying when I drop in it, therapist Mode but I'm like, Oh yeah, Mac, maybe. But we're not even arguing that, but you just keep moving forward.

[00:31:01] And that was like, Oh, you know, that was always in the back of my head. And so I definitely panicked. I'd have a little bit of an off day or I'd slip back into a little depression type thing. And so suddenly I didn't want to be going to school. But that was because of,

[00:31:13] Like the other thing, your

[00:31:14] Baseline and other thing in life and things are just sucking. And so I'm like, Well, maybe it's maybe I did the wrong thing and it's like, No, you're in a crappy relationship and you don't know exactly what you're doing with your life. And things are just hard and

[00:31:25] Life is hard. See, that's what stuck is that you're right, because I always talk about these triggers hungry, angry, lonely, tired or whatever. But yeah, inter back in crappy relationship. In the middle of all, this

[00:31:34] Is the core of my being, which that's a whole other thing.

[00:31:37] But that would be episode five

[00:31:39] That covid, right into that. Yeah, but no, you're as I'm trying as Covid is going on, I'm trying to finish school crappy relationship that nobody knows is crappy. I'm keeping it to myself among anxiety and depression in life.

[00:31:50] So in general, it's so funny then. So at that point was work almost even an anchor? I mean, your school was at that

[00:31:56] Point and I and so then it's your

[00:31:58] Parents. Hey, they're

[00:32:00] Cool. Yeah. So then it's like just all these other factors, all these things, then. Yeah, trying to figure out, Okay, did I do the right thing here? Am I going to be OK? Am I going to be able to make this work? Just yeah, trying to figure all of that out.

[00:32:13] I remember you have you have a beauty by Mackie account, and then you would start posting pictures of things that you were actually doing. And I was blown away because that's where I started thinking, Holy cow, this is real. It's happening. I mean, you're doing it and then you're having. I don't know if you can even talk about these things, but you're starting to call and have these experiences where people had felt down because of their appearance or because of whatever. And you're and you're listening to them in your chair and then you're transforming them the way they look. And then they're saying, Oh my gosh, and they're crying and hugging you and not tipping you still.

[00:32:42] No, never

[00:32:44] Because that was here that will all come back to you will be blessed. Yeah, right? But what were those experiences like?

[00:32:49] Well, yeah, there's one like when you say that there's one specific one that, like, I feel like was honest to goodness, like life changing talk about me because I it happened in a perfect time to where I'm, you know, relationship is crappy. Life's crappy. I'm I'm like doubting myself, doubting everything. I'm like, you know, I'm not making a difference. I'm not doing anything, whatever feeling down. And then I'm just sitting there and one of my teachers is like, Hey, we have we have this 13 year old girl coming in and this student is going to be doing her hair. Can you help? Can you just jump on? And I'm like, Yeah, sure, like whatever. And then she gives me a little backstory and tells me that this 13 year old is like wanting to end her life. And she's miserable. And she never leaves the house and her mom is trying everything and just can't like. She's just so worried. So she's like going to just bring her in for a low like spa type day or whatever. And so I'm like, OK. So I remember in that moment like feeling like everything in my life was out of my control. I knew that in that moment, I could I could do something. Yeah. And so I am going by the end of this, this girl is going to be smiling.

[00:33:43] She's going to feel good about herself. And I made that my whole life that I needed that to happen for her, but also for me in my life because I'm going to make this happen. And so I remember she sits on the chair. She's looking down at the ground. She won't even say a word. She won't tell us her name. She won't talk nothing. And the girl I'm working with kind of tries for a little bit and then just gives up and it's like, OK, I'm just going to do her hair, and that means I have to do it. And so I jumped in and I started being. I felt so annoying, but I was just like, What's your name? What's your favorite color? I'm doing? I'm just asking questions. She's not really saying anything, so I'm just saying, Oh, my favorite color is just saying anything, just trying to do anything, and we're just flailing her hair. We're going through whatever. And eventually she starts saying a few words, nothing crazy. She's still looking down at the ground, but we just start talking and laughing a little bit like, I just throw in a few things. Whatever we end up full on talking. I get a kind of laugh.

[00:34:33] And we're talking, This was hours. This thing?

[00:34:35] Oh, yeah, this was. It ended up being six or seven hours,

[00:34:38] Which I never knew you did those kind of things. It's not uncommon.

[00:34:40] We did her hair and then I did her makeup, and it was a whole thing, just hours and hours. And I think the breakthrough moment, I literally I was like, So you got like a crush on anyone. And she she starts blushing and he's all nervous and then spilled. It just told me everything about it. And then from that moment on, we were just vibing and we were just talking whatever. But anyways, so I ended up being fine. She was a whole new person. When she left, her mom had his take picture with her. Do whatever, and then she left, and she had sent me the pictures that she took, so she had my number. The mom did, yeah. And a couple of hours later I get a text from the mom and she's I just can't thank you guys enough. I don't even recognize my daughter in the best way possible, all this stuff. She just keeps saying that she feels beautiful, she feels beautiful, she feels beautiful, and she feels like she looks like her sisters and she loves it. And oh, just the nicest message I've ever seen. I was just sobbing as I read it and just saying that, like the 13 year old literally told her mom, That changed my life. Like that.

[00:35:36] Just so saying,

[00:35:38] Oh, so I'm I'm sobbing. Oh my gosh. All I did was talk to the girl. We just talked and we just connected as human beings. But for her, that was that was enough to make a difference, give her that little bit of hope that a little bit of motivation to be OK. Well, it doesn't all suck. It's going to be OK and Ivan, because I was talking to her. I remember when I was doing her makeup, I was asking her if she wanted to do anything and what she was thinking for her future. And she was like, I don't know, but like, I really like makeup, and she was talking about that and I was like, Do it. Here's who was awesome. Just go do it. This is so fun. You'd be so good at it and which kind of goes back to what we were talking

[00:36:08] About, where it totally does.

[00:36:09] How much of that can play into making a dream? A little bit more realistic.

[00:36:13] And I love that. Make it a dream. Yes.

[00:36:15] Yeah. And then feeling a little bit better about yourself raising that emotional baseline and all of that stuff. So that was a moment for me that I was like, OK, I can do something here.

[00:36:25] And that girl. Yeah, her name was Estee Lauder, and she now runs a giant cosmetic line, right? This was like a year ago. Oh, OK. It's kind to come on. Is that somebody still? Or was that just back in the eighties?

[00:36:39] There's still that's a company. Ok? Yeah, you're not.

[00:36:42] I was going to go and say in that girl like Ariana Grande. But then I thought, but when you went to makeup around, I thought that would be better. Oh yeah, my bad. So and I remember we would come out and especially for graduation, I had my first facial there. That was, Oh my gosh, that was incredible. It really was. It was. And then you graduate. And at that point. Well, first of all, talk about COVID. I mean, that not a real bummer. It was. It was a bummer for everybody. I'm not saying that. I'm not dismissing you, but I thought, Holy cow, you don't think about all the different ways.

[00:37:13] It was affected to some extent because at one

[00:37:14] Point then they stopped and said, OK, just read a bunch of things about hair and then and then the whole school down. You came home and you had all these creepy dolls around the house. What was the one thing, Cassie, Cassie? And then we would come downstairs and Cassie's there on the table, and she's looking at us. But you just had to keep practicing, not doing real.

[00:37:32] Yeah, because it ended up being like five months for me. Yeah, because I didn't want to do the online stuff because I felt like I was going to Egypt. So I just waited until it was back in person. But yeah,

[00:37:42] Did you have you had doubts during that time during the five months?

[00:37:45] Yeah, OK. Yeah. Oh, for sure. Because I was sitting, I was back sitting at home like I was right back

[00:37:49] Where I was playing with a lot of wii. Yeah, oh my gosh, we got good at the we. Lots of tennis. Lots of tennis. Lots of Mario Kart.

[00:37:55] Yeah. So that definitely scared me a little bit. Yeah. And then I was like, Do I want to go back? Do I can't I go finish?

[00:38:02] Honestly, that's what I love about this being able to talk to you about it now. I remember, I can't remember if mom and I talked about it, but I remember starting to feel like, Oh, what if? Yeah, she just feels, you know what?

[00:38:12] I'm just going to be right where it was. Yeah, senior year. So it was scary. But obviously I went back and I finished and it was hard. The last little bit was hard.

[00:38:21] Yeah, but well, especially they ended up being a thing where because of COVID and because of how long you had been home, I remember I think this is one of those examples of stuff just keeps happening in our lives, period. And then it's what do we do with her because you're, Oh my gosh, now I'm even thinking of when you took your test, remember? Oh yeah, OK, so let's talk a couple of stories, story time. So what I'm talking about here is you found out that there was a certain amount of time and weeks and something and hours. And because of COVID, there was this limit that we weren't aware of. And so I don't remember the details, but

[00:38:51] For some reason I needed to finish and I needed to finish.

[00:38:53] And you had to do, what, eight to eight weeks in a row of forty hours a week, 50 hours a week with no breaks. Now, remember, that was another part where I thought, Oh, what if Mackie just says it doesn't matter and you get that close? How do you how did you get through that?

[00:39:07] It was hard. It was so hard because I had never had to. I'd never had that long of days before. And then a lot of it was. I was alone for it because my friends would be there for the normal hours and I would have to come. I'd be there before and after them, so I'd get there in the morning and I'd be all by myself with the barbers so uncomfortable. And then I'd go through the whole day taking clients and then I'd have to stay extra hours after. And so just long, lonely days. And I was living by myself at the time, and most of my friends from Rexburg had moved at that point. So I was just very lonely, very scary. Just OK. But I knew I had to get it done. So I don't even know I. I remember it's like my only option, really. I mean,

[00:39:47] I tried to do it and because I remember we that we were waiting to hear more of those, oh, you know, Maggie's in trouble things. We kind of, yeah, you kind of never really did that. And I was

[00:39:56] Surprised to do it. I'm going to do it. And it sucked. It was not easy, but I did it and I kept telling myself. The thing in eight weeks, it's not going to matter. I'm going to be done and it's not going to matter, so I just kept telling myself that constantly. And then a year from now, I'm going to be I don't

[00:40:12] Even remember that. See, I

[00:40:13] Kept telling myself that and it's true. I don't even I remember. It sucks. I know.

[00:40:16] I can't remember either, because I feel like we're about to try to go into the memory bank. So. So there was you had to take two exams. Yeah, to get your license and the one was written and the other was the practical and the practical. So I get here really early. You were leaving to go early. Do you remember this?

[00:40:32] Yes, I remember this.

[00:40:33] So you. What was it? You had car trouble.

[00:40:36] So a story. Well, OK. So the day before my test, I was going to go for a drive, clear my head, get a good whatever. I get stuck in the snow. Oh, that's right. Remember that? Yes. And that's what caused the car troubles. Yes, because then my car got stuck in for low and whatever. Yeah, so get stuck in the snow and freaking out. Great. This is good. This is what I needed. I'd been studying all day for my test and I'm like, Cool. And then I called you guys. I'm literally digging my car out with my hands and you're saying, No, I don't know what to do.

[00:41:03] And we're

[00:41:04] Like, I don't know, like,

[00:41:06] Oh, we said, Try

[00:41:07] This, you know? Yeah. And eventually get my car out and it just feeling funny. But it's fine. I'll deal with it later. And so then I wake up. I have to leave at four in the morning or something for my test.

[00:41:16] It's super hour or two away and you have to be a certain place.

[00:41:19] Yeah, super early can't be late. Paid for it had to be there. It's this five hour test on your feet doing things. So I'm freaking out and I'm on my way there and my car's just being weird

[00:41:31] From the start I'm getting. I feel weird talking about it

[00:41:33] And then it gets to a point where they won't even accelerate. I can't go.

[00:41:36] That's when you called me.

[00:41:36] Yeah. Can't go more than fifty five sixty on this one.

[00:41:39] It was like 5:00 in the morning and you call and I remember you were saying what I do, what I do, and then I could just keep going.

[00:41:44] Yeah, just keep going. You told me, you're like, just get there. Like, just get there

[00:41:47] Because part of me and then pull over and see. But no go. Just go.

[00:41:50] Yeah, yeah, just go. And I don't know if I'm going to make it. I don't know what's going on. I don't know the car's shaking. And then I finally, I'm pulling up around the corner. I get off the exit. Luckily, the place is right off the casino.

[00:42:02] Yeah, casino hotel right off the exit.

[00:42:04] And and I've been praying the whole time. Just get me there. Literally, I get there off the exit. My car just stop. Just shuts down, start smoking and I glide into the parking lot,

[00:42:16] But still far away from parking so

[00:42:18] Far away. But I glide in their car smoking. I'm yelling at you. I'm losing my mind. And what do I do? Like five minutes to be inside

[00:42:24] Told you that they would lock the doors?

[00:42:25] Literally. They literally lock the door. So I'm losing my mind. And then

[00:42:29] You just leave the

[00:42:30] Car. I'm being so mean to you. Like, I'm

[00:42:32] Definitely not for it

[00:42:34] And I have this big tub I have to carry with me right the door. Super, far away. I'm freaking out. Then this lady comes up to me and she says, What's going on? I don't know. I'm like freaking out. And anyways, some miracle security guy comes, we'll deal with your car. I get in the security car. He drives me up. I run in the building. I'm carrying my box. I don't even know where I'm going. I pull up. I walk in the guy at the at the door. He's ten more seconds and I was going to lock the door literally. So I'm cool. Thanks. Like, that's the last thing. I don't want my phone. I don't have my keys. I don't know anything, and I have to take this test. It's like super is, so I'm filled with anxiety. My heart's racing. I'm sweaty, I'm gross. I just it's 6:00 in the morning, but like, it's so early. I'm like dying and then take my test. Go out there. I've no idea where my phone is. No idea where my keys are. Nothing.

[00:43:17] Yeah, so meanwhile, from my angle, so it was so funny. And I think there's a cool thing for parents to hear where, yeah, you're saying now you're yelling at me, all that stuff, but I get it because you were freaking out and it was such a big thing. But but then it was so funny to hear from my angle as soon as the lady came up and the security guards and stuff, you're like, Hi, oh yeah, if you could help, that'd be great because I'm sitting there like people are coming up. What do they do? What do you like, Mackey? They can help you. They can't. They don't know what's going on. They don't know what I mean. And I loved it because the concept I'm talking about, though, is I often tell parents that that's OK. I mean, it's actually a good thing if you felt safe enough that you could express that to me. And so parents listening to this, the last thing that a parent needs to do is say, Look, I'm trying to help you. You need to calm down, because that would.

[00:44:00] I don't know that would have ruined it like you handled it. So. And just being nice and just listening, even though I was being, that's OK. I was being a jerk. That's all right. And you were just saying so then.

[00:44:10] So then you get into the test. And it's funny because for most of the day, I'm checking find my phone or whatever. And yeah, it's the phone's not exactly where you were taking the test. And then then I'm calling friends in Rexburg. I'm calling a friend of mine who owns like a big company and. And so by the time you got out, then you had these texts when you did get your phone. And I think one of my friends

[00:44:32] Was, You tell me, Yeah, your friend is on his way to pick me up.

[00:44:34] Yeah, did. Yeah, but she didn't really want Ben.

[00:44:37] Well, I had no idea. Yeah, I was two hours away and so I was OK. And then you had someone coming to get

[00:44:43] Me at the car and a lot of

[00:44:45] Time. Yeah, it was

[00:44:47] And Mackey passed.

[00:44:48] I did pass. I just

[00:44:50] Look at that doing hard things, continuing to move forward and then just making the most of that situation and

[00:44:56] Just be present like I be prepared for things and then be present because I had studied enough and gone over it enough that it was almost muscle

[00:45:01] Memory. Yeah, exactly.

[00:45:03] But yeah, then just dialing in and being like. Those things are out of my control, I can't do anything about that, I need to just be here, do this right now, which is really hard.

[00:45:10] It is not easy to do that. No, and especially with that kind of circumstance. And then so now let's let's fast forward to you graduate. You come home for a little bit and then you were looking at all right, what do I do next? And you were looking at, do I go back to Idaho because I know people there? Do I go to Utah because you've got a cousin there and you guys are looking at maybe rooming together? Do you try to get something here in California?

[00:45:32] I had no idea.

[00:45:33] Yeah, yeah. Did that start to feel? I would say, did that start to feel overwhelming or

[00:45:37] Yeah, because it was scary, too, because that was the moment where I then had to start a career. I'm starting a full on career, and so I felt like I had to do the right thing. Yeah, but I didn't know what the right thing was, and I didn't know it was really scary.

[00:45:52] And I bet. And so this is where I want to keep throwing good old therapy principles in there because you heard about this opportunity, I forget who even told you about the opportunity with Meg in

[00:46:01] Utah, the hairstylist I went to in high school. Ah, I went with mom. Yeah, to her hair

[00:46:06] Appointment, she had her out Caitlyn, Yeah, yeah. Right? So then she yeah. So she tells you this opportunity, and I remember

[00:46:13] Asking for her advice like on, you know, what do I do? You went through her school. You have a good successful career now. What do I do? And she was telling me how she got started and that she she was like, I wish that I had done this. I wish I gone to assisted somebody, which I didn't even know. That was a thing, and I didn't know you could get paid to assist. Yeah, in hair. So I was, Oh, I'm intrigued because I was like, I want to be ready. I want to be. I want to jump in and I want to be able to succeed and know what I'm doing. And I was assisting would be perfect. And she happened to know somebody or know of somebody in Utah who had a really good assisting program. So, OK, so I like followed that

[00:46:48] Person, right? And I love I get it to the dad therapist, whatever. Because then there were still those. Ok, that would be amazing. But then here come the yeah. But yeah,

[00:46:57] But yeah, and that's all it was about

[00:46:59] First, like it was. Yeah, but I don't even know what I would say. I don't even know if that's what I want to do. I don't know. I don't know.

[00:47:04] I want to go to Utah. I don't know if I can. I don't even know if it would work, and then I could get my license. Like there was just all these other things. And it was easy to lean into those things and just be like, Well, maybe I'll just stay home. And you know, and

[00:47:14] And we were, Boy, I'm telling you, acceptance doesn't mean apathy. We were saying, Hey, Mac, yeah, if you want to, but what would what would that look like?

[00:47:21] You know, you know, yeah, you just stare at your ceiling all day again. Are we going to start that?

[00:47:25] Never said that, for the record. But.

[00:47:27] And so I finally just OK. No harm will come from just messaging this.

[00:47:30] I just want to say, say that again, because right, nothing will. Nothing negative will come from just continuing to move forward. Yeah, you can always say no, or they may say no.

[00:47:39] And that was I think it was just accepting the fact that there might be some rejection, but that that wouldn't be the end of the world didn't mean anything. It wasn't anything to take personally. So I had to mentally prepare myself there and get that in my head and then decide I'm just going to reach out. Worst things you can do is say, No, I'm not looking, and then I'll reassess and I'll try to figure something out. And then it was just one of those things where she got right back to me. You did face time interviews. Suddenly, I have a job, but

[00:48:06] I love what she did. Talking about I want this isn't why you're on here, but I want everyone in the world to go find your salon and come see you because I obviously you're my daughter and I want them to come get their hair done by you. But what I thought was really cool was, you were saying to me, Hey, have you heard of the what was like the Innegram and have you heard of this? Have you heard of that and maybe put you through the paces from a

[00:48:26] Love language test? Yeah. Like just because her she is this whole thing where she's you can't be your best self if you don't know yourself like that whole thing. And it's so true because if you don't know how you function, how are you supposed to do anything? Yeah. And then if you're if the people you're working with don't know how you function, how are you supposed to run something together? How are you supposed to be successful? So she knows everything about me personality wise, like she knows

[00:48:51] A lot about yourself, too, because you were coming home and saying, Yeah, have you heard of these things? And that's where I love the fact that you can. Sometimes it literally does take somebody else to bring these things up because as a parent, I mean, I was screaming inside of. Yeah, we've talked about these things, but you know, no, no,

[00:49:06] No, no. And yeah, so it forced me to then understand myself a little bit better. And then it just helps. I think every employer in the world should do it because then you just know how to communicate. And you know, Meg knows. How to talk to me about things and how to confront me about things or how to deal with things without shutting me down or breaking me. So it's just it's really good.

[00:49:27] So then and then there were other things that were, I mean, I remember and this is again, it's still funny now what you said earlier. It was really hard to try to find a place for a while. But now you're in a place and I and I don't. Yeah, but we kept moving forward and there were a lot of these times where it felt like it's not going to work. Can't find a place or license.

[00:49:42] You're going to get everything was just stressful. And then all of a sudden they have this job. And I had a couple of weeks really to figure it out and get myself to Utah. So it was intense and it was scary, but we just kept doing. It was one thing. It was going to be me to see that whole thing. Yes, OK, just do this and then we'll do this. And then, you know, and it's going to be fine.

[00:50:01] But what if eight steps down? This doesn't work? I know, right? But what's in front of us?

[00:50:06] So we kept doing that whole thing. And then again, just telling myself, OK, a couple of months from now, somehow I'm going to be in Utah and I'm going to be at my job and everything's going to be fine and it's not going to matter. That's I always that's that's why I like everything. I like it. So I just did that whole thing. And then it's OK. Suddenly, this apartment looks promising and then it works. And then we get it. And then I have a job and I have a day that I'm going there and my license finally comes through. Everything just fell into place. And here we are, and here we are. Been there for a couple of months. Yeah, working, taking clients and loving it. Loving it.

[00:50:38] And do you feel do you still feel confident you've learned some crazy advanced stuff around extensions and things like that, right? Are those things that you didn't know that you would already be learning?

[00:50:47] Yeah, yeah. My boss, I mean, she wants me to be successful, which is really nice. Yeah. So she just we just got right into to think I just it was, OK, you're here. You're going to work. We're going to learn. It's all going to be good. And yes,

[00:50:57] It's moved to a new brand new

[00:50:59] Building, brand new building

[00:51:00] Where you OK now for real? Because one of my top ten is one of my top 10 metro areas is the Salt Lake Valley Pro Bowl.

[00:51:07] That's right in South Jordan, right off Redwood Road. If anyone's in Utah, they know exactly

[00:51:11] What that is. Yeah. Name the place

[00:51:13] Is. It's called ivory salon and suites.

[00:51:15] Ok? And I'll have links in the show notes. But your Instagram here is beauty by Mac, beauty by MacKie and McKee.

[00:51:23] Yeah. Has all the links there. All the

[00:51:25] Things you can literally go sign up and you can do

[00:51:28] Their stuff. You can damn me you can whatever. Yeah, I'm there. I'm working.

[00:51:32] And then so before we wrap things up too, then that concept of we've joked a little bit back east. So I love this too. You surprised us. You came home for the weekend and I just I love those things and I should have known when I walked in Friday. Then mom was sitting there with her phone on me and. And then you jumped out and surprise me. I love that stuff. That's so fun, right? Yeah. But so Mackie came home, and that's why we're recording right now. But we also talked a little bit about it is still, is it still weird to think this is I'm an adult, I'm an adult teen.

[00:52:01] It's really scary and I feel like I don't know. You don't hear a whole lot about being an adult when you're not an adult, you know? Yeah. And then all of a sudden you're an adult and everything's expensive and hard and

[00:52:12] And you got to just keep doing.

[00:52:13] It kind of sucks, but it's kind of fun and it's like, Yeah, and that's we're talking about that. You have to keep doing it. And that's really scary. And you were telling me some good stuff there where I was telling you, I kind of start to freak out sometimes where I go, this is my life. Now I have to show up to work or I can't function. I can't live, I can't OK.

[00:52:31] I'm like, Yeah, no, we're not about to wrap this up because what we were talking about was it kind of goes along to

[00:52:36] Really daunting to think this is this is the rest of my life. Yeah, which I think everyone at some point or another has those thoughts. And it's like just the the way life works and the way you need money and you need to. I don't know. It just it's scary.

[00:52:49] It was I was telling Becky that it really does at times, and I can be probably a little bit therapist, annoying and reframing things. But it really does. We'll people will feel oftentimes like, Yeah, it's going to suck, but what are you going to do? And sometimes I reframe it to try to say there's a book called The Road Less Traveled, where the guy says life is difficult, and once we accept it, it's difficult. Then the fact that it's difficult no longer matters. And now we're not arguing. I can't believe it's so difficult. Or why is it difficult or it's more difficult for me than other people. And and those are the things that get us bogged down in the we could worry and think about those things all day. But once we accept it, yeah, it's going to be pretty difficult. But what are we going to do? And then you start turning toward things that really matter to you? And then and then the more you do that, the more you raise your emotional baseline, the more you feel a sense of purpose and the more of those up up days you're going to have. And on the down days, you still feel like that you have a direction or a sense of purpose. But I think it's pretty cool. But then I also think

[00:53:41] I'm figuring that

[00:53:42] Well, and that's what I'm still trying. I mean, I feel like that becomes what you end up having to do for the rest of your life, right? But that sounds daunting saying that. But what I was telling you about is that when we go back to your senior year and go back to what you felt was an Option B and going to school, and I was telling Mackey, Yeah, I went 10 years in a career that I did not really enjoy, but I didn't even know how much I didn't enjoy it until I found the thing that I did enjoy. So that's where I feel like you were

[00:54:08] Just plugging away.

[00:54:08] Yeah, yeah. But now and I like what you're saying, I mean, yeah, there's still days and clients and things like that that I maybe not is excited about. But overall, I love what I do, which then sure helps which. Do you kind of found

[00:54:20] That, yeah. Yeah, I think,

[00:54:22] Yeah, well, right, because this might be you may go however long on this and then the fact that you did that will will give you the confidence to then say, OK, now I want to pivot it slightly or whatever I want to do.

[00:54:34] Yeah, I like what I'm doing. I'm happy to be doing it. She's crazy. It's crazy to have that sense of purpose and this life changing. It is. And to feel like, OK, even though I don't know all the other things in life is still hard and all but have thing that I'm OK. I'm doing this and I like it, and it's going to be OK and I can be successful if I want to be successful.

[00:54:53] And we were even talking about Your boss is doing an amazing job with her studio and setting up things and promoting everybody. And but we were even talking about everybody's different there, too. I think we were saying, you may not be the person who wants to have their own place. You may want to be a person that has a there, rent their chair within the place. Or you might want. I mean, you can do kind

[00:55:11] Of kinds of options.

[00:55:12] Yeah, based on what you enjoy or what makes it tick.

[00:55:16] Literally, yeah. So I'll figure that out eventually.

[00:55:18] You need to know right now. No, not at all. For anybody that is watching, we'll probably throw up. It's not the best camera angle, but check out your hands. So what are the things you what are the things you didn't anticipate about this work that

[00:55:28] Always have hair dye on them? Yeah, they always look really gross. Yeah, they're there. It's pretty bad right now and it won't come off.

[00:55:36] It will. The other thing I think was funny was you. I remember the first time you told me that you get little cuts from here or something like that. Your hair slivers, which sounds like a great name for an alternative band. Like I would go see, I would see the hair slivers like they opened up. They would probably open up for a bigger band.

[00:55:50] Yeah, no, for sure, right?

[00:55:52] Yeah. So here's the update Do you still get them? Do they hurt?

[00:55:55] It's more. That's more like a short haircut type thing. Typically, more men, which I don't do. I don't really cut guy here anymore unless it's like my cousins.

[00:56:05] If a guy came to your salon, though, and said I would like a fancy haircut, would you say, yes?

[00:56:10] My boss is a genius and her place is right next to a barbershop. Ok, so I don't have

[00:56:17] To know that's a good. That's good. I don't have to do that. That's good. What do you like doing the most of so far?

[00:56:22] I just anything color related. I've always liked that, but I really like extensions, which I'm surprised I didn't. Yeah, because it's tedious and it's a lot of work, but it's really

[00:56:32] These are game changers for people, right? Oh yeah, yeah. Oh, that's so cool.

[00:56:36] So that's been really fun.

[00:56:37] Yeah. So people can go find you and go say hi and literally book with you and any parting words of advice. Now for the here comes deep therapeutics therapeutics. That's not a word therapeutic person. So talking to that 16 17 year old Mackey, what do you what do you tell her so many things?

[00:56:58] No, but I feel like based off of the career stuff. Yeah. Do what you want to do. Yeah. I just so I know that it comes to a point where you need to be providing for yourself or your family, whatever it is, but you can't do those things if you're not somewhat happy and if you're not OK, so you need to do the things that you want to do and figure it out that way. And don't don't be scared of what other people are going to

[00:57:23] Think that's

[00:57:24] So big is that I let that get to me so bad and just it doesn't matter. It's you, and your life.

[00:57:29] It's so hard. I mean, that's the part where I feel like I still deal with that at times, you know? I mean, that's

[00:57:34] It's you and it's what you're going to be spending all your time doing. So you need to pick what you can be passionate about and what makes you feel that purpose and all of those things, which that's a whole other matter that could go

[00:57:45] Hours on that. And I have, yeah. Yeah.

[00:57:48] But then to a little 16 year old Mackie, I feel like it is just that. It's a combination of the A to B, B to C type thing or focus on the things that you can deal with right then and there in that moment, because you don't have control over all the other things and then understand the part where. Now, always using words, OK, a year from now, a year from now, is this thing really going to matter or is it going to be this this big of a deal? Whatever I do that all the time, it's calm down, it's OK. It's fine, everything's going to be fine. It's not that big of a deal. Feel the feelings, but it's OK. It's not that big of a deal. It's going to be fine. I don't know. Just know that there is hope. Even one doesn't feel like it. Yeah, it's all like it is there and it does. It comes and goes feelings wise, but it is there which I feel like I didn't know that. Yeah. And then I think the biggest thing is just. Help is there. Accept it, accept it, because I think that was I didn't want to. And it's good. I didn't want to lean into that and I didn't want to admit that I had anything wrong. Like mentally, I didn't want to admit that I was sad. I didn't want to, like, make it real. So I pushed away all the help, and I was just like, No.

[00:58:53] As a therapist, we suggested therapy. What were your thoughts?

[00:58:58] He it.

[00:58:58] Absolutely. The moment I want it.

[00:59:00] But then I wanted it so bad. I just it was just the I didn't find the right person for me. Like, I didn't find somebody that I could really click with. Yeah, and then I gave up.

[00:59:09] I know, right? And that's why I felt bad, because that we would say, OK, well, we can find somebody else. But at that point, was it.

[00:59:14] I just felt defeated, and I again, I felt like there was no hope. There was no motivation. I didn't feel purpose. I was just like, Why? I'm not going to go? Why does it matter? I don't want to deal with it. And so I pushed that away. But no, just do the things, do the little things. I went on medication like I did things and

[00:59:32] Do all the

[00:59:33] Things, do all the things because the things help. They really do.

[00:59:36] Maybe there's the title, do all the things because

[00:59:38] They will help all the things and things help.

[00:59:40] Mackie, thank you so much. This was really cool. I wanted to talk about this one all the time and go find Mackie and go get your hair cut by her because she's really good. Thank you. Yeah. Take us out with a whistle. You know, Wendy, Wendy Wendy is my wife and say for those listening, he struggle whistling. That's not bad.

[01:00:03] Then he goes, Yeah, that's so embarrassing.

[01:00:05] All right. Mckinley Overbay, thank you so much. We will see you the next time I see you. Well, I'll see you as soon as I hit. But then it would be the fifth time. That's crazy. I think you get a jacket.

[01:00:14] Oh, you're already getting that jacket? I'll tell you another one. Ok, we'll do that. Ok, love you, man. By everybody.

[01:00:21] Compressed emotions flying past our heads and out the other end, the pressures of the daily grind. It's wonderful. And plastic waste and rubber ghost are floating past the midnight hour. They push aside the things that matter most wonderful. May 12. News of discount price. A million opportunity, the chance is yours to

[01:01:28] Take or lose, it's one.

[01:01:33] Funds are always on the back burner until the opportune time always pushed

[01:01:40] To go further, shut up. It goes. And some of. And. To be.

[01:02:21] I've developed this does don't explode a lot of understanding through to heal the legs and hearts, you broke the pain. Oh, the ship girls just

[01:02:34] Might implode my mental strength and cause I'm trying hard to shut

[01:02:41] Them out.

[01:02:45] The Manchester bomb is dropped due to a. You. To take. Screen. Fancie's. It drowns dreams.

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