If you want to know what you need to do with your life, ask somebody close to you. Chances are they'll immediately have an opinion. But when they do share what they think YOU need to do with YOUR life, why do you immediately think of doing the opposite? Better yet, why can they come up with an answer and direction for YOUR life easier than YOU can...because it's YOUR life!


Tony starts with Fowler's Stages of Faith, applying them to life in general, touches the bases on attachment, values, and then slides into home in a made-up land where you can be your value-based, unique, one-of-a-kind version of you...the land tentatively called "Differentiation-ville!"


Sign up today to be the first to know when the next round of The Magnetic Marriage Course will launch http://tonyoverbay.com/magnetic

-------------------- TRANSCRIPT --------------------

[00:00:15] Come on in. Take a seat couch.

[00:00:21] Hey, everybody, welcome to episode two hundred and eighty one of the virtual couch, and today I feel like I'm just going to riff a little bit because I have had something that has been on my mind. I already feel like I'm sounding very dramatic. I'm very, very dramatic. There's something that's been on my mind the last few weeks, and I'm going to go probably in a couple of different directions. I'll try to stay somewhat on topic, but I have had an opportunity to do a fair amount of training over the last few years of my career. And recently, I've been able to train a fair amount of ecclesiastical leaders, so leaders for religious congregations. And it's been a pretty cool process, because a lot of times in the in the context of someone's religious experience, there is an awful lot of people saying, here's what you need to do, here's how you do it and here's what you need to do. And a lot of this stems from the work that I've done with James Fowler stages of faith. And I even think it might not be a bad idea to just run over those real quick, because I feel like the stages of faith also apply to our stages of life. And I did a podcast a long time ago about that. And if you stay with me here, I really feel like I'm going to make a point, but let me do a little bit of set up first.

[00:01:32] So Fouler Stages of faith is a concept where psychologists stand. And religious pastor James Fowler back in, I believe the 80s, spent over a decade researching all encompassing belief systems. So there were a lot of different views or a lot of different religious groups that he studied. And he, in essence, broke down these stages of faith that went along with, I think it was Piaget and Colberg stages of development or stages of life and in stage one, stage one faith. This is typically preschool children. And this is where fantasy and reality gets mixed together. But but our ideas about God are formed by our parents. So it's also a project of faith. So I always look at this as the kids are playing on the ground and their parent comes in and says, hey, kids, there's a God. And the kid says, OK, great. And they continue to play with their toys. And this stage, too, that they often move on to. And this might be from three to 12 or that sort of timeframe is essentially they call it mythic and literal. And so this is where children become school age and they start to understand the world in more logical ways. But they generally accept the stories told to them by their faith community, but they tend to understand them in very literal ways. And what this can look like is I often say this is where then kids are being told about the tooth fairy, the Easter Bunny, Batman and Superman, but also the concept of Jesus or God or and so all of these things seem very mythic and very, very literal.

[00:03:07] And so a lot of people then move on to this stage three. And right now we're talking about it in a religious context. But I would love for you to think of it in terms of even life in general, that when we move up into this stage, three faiths, this is where people start to move on as teenagers and their life is and has grown to include several different social circles. And so they start to want to put these all together. And when that happens, a person will typically adopt some sort of what Balr calls an all encompassing belief system. And this is where I like to say that you can think of this concept of a box, and this isn't a negative thing at all. But all of your beliefs and all of the things that you are told that this is what you believe, this is where this will lead to the things that you should be doing. All of those things fit in this nice, tidy box. And so at this stage, people tend to have a hard time seeing outside of their box because they're starting to really get the vibe or or they're interacting with a lot of people within their box and the stories or leadership or that sort of thing.

[00:04:07] I thought those are groups that represent one's beliefs. And a lot of people remain in this stage three faith stage, three box, or even take a look at that stage in life for the rest of their entire life. And what that can mean is that they've been told, whether it's by their parents or grandparents or community or church group or any of those, that this is not only what you believe spiritually, but this is what you believe socially, and this is what you need to do with the rest of your life. So people can operate out of this stage three box, the stage three of faith or the stage three of life. But while that can work for a lot of people, for so many others, as they start to just experience life, they start to what I like to say, bump into the sides of the box. They start to look outside of the box, peek up over the box. And this can happen in so many different ways. And the religious context that can happen when people think life happens or if they've all of a sudden a spouse cheats on them. If they have a kid that comes out as gay or any LGBTQ. Or if they have someone pass away or if they have serious health issues, or if somebody in their family does something that is so devastating to them and it has a big impact on these things in life can happen.

[00:05:19] And all the. What used to make sense in this box may not make as much sense, and because of the way that we grow up and we grow up with our own abandonment kind of attachment issues, the way that we grow up as egocentric kids, because that's what we all start out, is that everything revolves around us, that then all the sudden we feel like if things are not going right in our lives, it must be me. But I must be doing something wrong and must be unlovable and must be broken. But so as things start to get a little bit more messy or there are a lot more variables that come into play, sometimes we start to feel like what's wrong with me inside of this box, whether that's a religious box or whether it's just a life box, or if somebody if we go back over to this life concept of stage three, that people may start to realize, man, I don't want to pursue the career that my parents have always told me that I needed to pursue. I don't want to stay with the family business or I don't want to live in the area or I want to marry someone that is completely different than somebody that has been suggested that this is this is somebody who I think you would like to marry.

[00:06:26] And so you can start to see that there are a lot of things that start to have people feel like they are not doing something right. Within this stage three box, whether it's stage three, again, religion or stage three of life, but the authority is placed in individuals or groups that represent one's beliefs. That's the the layout of stage three. Or if you put that in a non-religious context, the authority is placed in groups or individuals that in essence, represent one's life. This is what we do. This is where we live. This is who we marry. These are the shows we like. This is a religious affiliation. This is our political affiliation. So when people start to have their own experiences, because guess what? They're human and they are each one of us is the only version of us that's ever walked the face of the earth. So we have our own. And I go to this all the time. But our own nature and nurture and birth order and abandonment. Darney hopes, dreams, fears, rejection. Each one of us is a product of all of those experiences that are unique to you. So it's no wonder that we will run into the sides of this box, this stage three of our faith, or the stage three of our life. But where that leads us typically is Fowler lays out is stage four.

[00:07:41] He says this is a tough stage often begun in young adulthood when people start singing outside of the box and realizing that there are other boxes. And so oftentimes they'll critically examine their beliefs on their own and become disillusioned with their former faith. And again, if we look at this as either a faith concept or a life concept, when people start to have a lot of their own experiences, they get a lot of their own feels and a lot of their own things, then they may look critically at that stage, three box of their faith or that stage three box of their life, simply because they are having their own experience. But it's Fowler talks about there. Is that typically or ironically, stage three people often feel like stage four people have become backsliders when in reality they feel like they are finally starting to move forward. And then where I think it's fascinating as there becomes a little bit of a battle in this stage three versus stage four, whether it's in a faith community or even whether it's in a life community, when somebody finally feels a little bit more empowered in stage four. They often look at stage three and say, hey, I got to go be me. I got to do the things that make me happy. But the people in stage three will often feel like, no, no, no, you can't. You're doing the wrong things or reading the wrong things.

[00:08:53] You don't really want to go pursue that career. You don't really want to marry that person. You don't really want to move to that place or go to that. But there's a couple of things that are fascinating. And this is part of what I just wanted to talk about today is I've done so many various podcasts that talk about all of these concepts, because in this one, I talk often about you can have in adult relationships, you can have, you know, love or you can have control. But I really believe that they both don't go together. So here's where sometimes people in that stage three experience are. And bless their heart, they want to control those people that are starting to pull away from that stage of life or that stage three of faith. And this is where I start talking about my four pillars of a connected conversation, that the pillar one is assume good intentions. So sometimes it's hard. But when you step back and see that stage, three percent say, no, don't don't do that. Don't read that. You're not going to be happy that they're coming from a place of love, but they maybe are using the wrong tools. And so when they're telling people in stage four of life or of faith that they're doing something wrong, we got a couple of things happen, multiple things happening. Number one, we got good old psychological reactions or that instant negative reaction of telling somebody what to do.

[00:10:10] We don't like it until your brain don't think a chocolate cake. It probably just thought a chocolate cake right now. So tell somebody that they shouldn't be reading the things that they are reading or shouldn't be watching the shows they're watching or shouldn't be hanging. Out with the friends they're hanging out with. I shouldn't be dating the person that they're dating. And already we've got that psychological reactance. But we have to look at this on my four pillars of a connected conversation. The assuming of good intentions on both sides. The person that's saying, hey, I wouldn't do that. Sometimes it's hard for the person in that stage for of life or stage for faith to view their stage. Three person is coming with good intentions. And it's really hard for the stage three person to look over at the stage for a person and say that I am assuming good intentions of even what they are doing, what you know, who they are becoming. And so here comes that desire to control. And so I work so many I work with so many people that come to me in this stage four, whether it's stage four of faith. And that's where they almost what they do. Oftentimes, they are just coming into my office saying, man, just tell me to read a certain scripture or a talk or something and watch me walk out of here, because that's what people have done.

[00:11:18] People in that stage three box have said so many times. Hey, you need to double down on your prayers or your scripture reading, which is most likely something that person has done in stage three for who knows how long, which has caused them to start to feel like what's wrong with me. And again, nothing is wrong with them. They're human. But I work with so many people to get there in that stage four. And that's why I love being able to say, tell me more. Tell me about that. That sounds hard. Here comes empathy. And a lot of times they may talk about challenges or struggles they've had with their faith community or things that they've learned about their particular faith that they no longer agree with. And that's where you want to be a safe place for that person to be able to express themselves. When I go back to what I started with today, I did a training recently with a group of religious leaders. And one of them, we were talking about these four pillars of a connected conversation, because I was saying that in order for somebody to start having a conversation around helping someone through their their faith journey, that we first need to be able to listen. Because if we don't know how to listen and have empathy, then there is no way that someone is going to come to you and want help with anything.

[00:12:26] So I started this training by talking about my four pillars of a connected conversation. I said, when someone comes into your office, that's the assumption of good intentions. They're not trying to hurt you. And pillar two is you can't put out the message that you are that the other person is wrong or that you don't agree with them, even if you feel they're wrong or even if you don't agree with them. Because at any point when you violate one of these pillars, the conversation is going to go south. It's going to shut down, it's going to devolve, and we're going to get into this psychological reactance mode. We're going to get into the tit for tat. Somebody is going to just withdraw and the conversation will stop. So somebody comes into their office, the ecclesiastical leader's office, and says, I'm really struggling with my faith, the assumption of good intentions, or they say that I'm really straight. I don't believe this particular thing anymore, that the assumption of good intentions check pillar two, you can't tell miled don't think that or you shouldn't think that or well, you're wrong, because, again, that person is going to now be on the defensive. They're going to feel unheard and certainly unseen. And then that conversation is going to shut down. Pillar three, we can ask questions, ask questions before making comments.

[00:13:33] Tell me more about that. Tell me why you feel that way. Tell me what your struggles and your challenges are. And then that person listening a pillar for is they need to stay present. They can't just say, well, looks like you're going to do whatever the heck you want to do. So good luck on that, because oftentimes that pillar for we go and do what I just referred to as a victim mentality and then the person that's speaking to then come rescue us and say, no, you know what, you're right. I don't even know what I'm talking about. So we have to be able to have the conversation. We have people to have this framework to be able to have and have a difficult conversation. So I get the people in my office, OK, this is where I was going with that story. So there's one ecclesiastical leader after we laid out the four pillars, and I can understand what they were saying and they said, let me get this straight or let me check in that that obviously, if we're going to just listen to somebody for an hour, then we're just going to feel like we're condoning their bad behavior. And here's what started this whole desire to have this this podcast episode today. And I really hope that it's going to make sense. I appreciated what this person was asking me, this religious leader, but I felt like I had to just go back into this particular mindset that I had worked so hard to move away from, to be able to even engage or address that question, because here's why.

[00:14:51] The phrase was something like obviously and obviously is a I call it a reactance hook. When somebody says, well, obviously this is what this means or obviously this is what we all know, then even our own brains are thinking that it's not obvious because I may have a different view or I may have a different opinion. So I don't even think I address that when when the person asked me this question, but they said that listening for an hour is condoning their bad behavior. So as I moved back over into this this mindset. Where and I said, OK, first of all, and I thank them for their question, but I said listening for an hour is is absolutely not condoning anything. Listening for an hour's part of the human experience, listening for an hour is going under the premise that to be heard is to be healed. If someone's coming to you and they're saying, hey, I want to talk, then isn't it only natural that the next part of that would be, well, if they would like to talk, I would like to listen. Because if I immediately just start telling them what they need to do now, we're moving back into that. Do you want love or control in the relationship? Because if it's control, then I can already tell you where that's going to go over the long haul.

[00:16:01] If the person even maybe in that moment says, oh, OK, yeah, you're right, but they don't feel heard or they don't feel seen or understood, then they may be just giving you lip service. But that isn't what's going to drive change. So, again, listening for an hour is absolutely not condoning a behavior. And then I even took a little bit exception with the concept of bad behavior. And this one can be a little bit hard to wrap our heads around, but we have to stop judging. We do need to stop judging behavior as good or bad, black or white, all or nothing. Those are cognitive distortions. So I said it's behavior. And it may seem like to you that's bad behavior, but it's behavior. And if you're watching this on my YouTube channel on hold my hand up is I constantly am doing this with clients of helping them reframe when they say, what's wrong with me, I'm thinking this thing. Why do I think this thing? I want to say, no, no, no. We got to reframe it to say, check out what I'm thinking, because I have lots of thoughts. I can have all kinds of thoughts. And so bad behavior, its behavior. And then let's if we can just look at it like, man, check out this behavior that I'm doing.

[00:17:07] We're designed to deal with emotion in concert with another human being. We desperately want to be able to process things with somebody else when we leave things just running around, kicking around in our own brain because of the way our brain is evolved. Our brains evolved from a don't get killed device to basically try to look out and overthink things so that we'll be able to survive that if we just leave our brain to its own devices, it doesn't typically go to the end. And I lived happily ever after. It goes to that. And then eventually everyone leaves me and I die. So when somebody is saying, Chaille, this behavior and that's what we need to look at it as, it's just a behavior. And there are reasons why we do behaviors. Is that addictive behavior? Maybe, but then that one's probably a coping mechanism. That's probably something that somebody has done for a long time that they turn to and they don't feel connected. And my path back recovery program, I talk about this constantly, is that when I'm talking about somebody that's wanting to turn away from pornography, it's turn away from pornography is a coping mechanism because they feel like they have a lot of these voids in their lives. They might not feel connected to their spouse and marriage. And I feel connected in their parenting. They may not feel connected to their health or their faith or their career.

[00:18:16] So they turn to an unhealthy coping mechanism. So if somebody is bringing that into your office as an ecclesiastical leader or to you as a parent, or do you as a friend or to you as a spouse, think tell them thank you. Tell them tell me more. So if you look back into this, it's not obvious that listening is condoning a bad behavior. So I hope you can see that as we start to lay all of that out. We had to do a complete mindshift to be able to really be there and listen empathetically to somebody that might be moving on from this stage. Three feels like life made sense in this little box into the stage for where all of a sudden they don't know who they are. And then when they turn to those people, their community, their family are people that are potentially in the stage three of life. And it works for them. But then to that stage four person, they're frustrated. They feel unheard and unseen and unloved and broken. And what's wrong with them? But the answer is nothing. They're just doing life. So when I have a client in there, this is where I'm hoping to move them into a stage five. This is a stage five version of life or stage five version of faith. And I've had a couple of people bring up and I can appreciate this, where they may take exception because they feel like this is this linear progression.

[00:19:28] But just because numbers go one, two, three, four or five doesn't mean that you are trying to get to the end of that, trying to get to the end, because if somebody is happy where they are, I don't care if it's they're happy in stage two and they're like Lennie of Mice and Men and life is mythic and literal, then that is good for them. If they are finding peace and joy in stage three, then that's great. It doesn't mean that they need to try to tell everybody else what to do. But if you can move on from the stage for a faith or stage four of life, get out of this reactance mode and slip into this stage five, stage five. Fowler says that he says it's rare for people to reach the stage before midlife. This is the point when people begin to realize the limits of logic and they start to accept the paradoxes in life. They begin to see life as more of a mystery so they can return to sacred stories and symbols for this time without being stuck in a theological box. So the significance of that is that. Stage five starts to be this place where you feel like I am the only version of me and that I have been trained so hard to figure out how to let's jump into this religious context again, how to communicate with God, how to communicate with the divine.

[00:20:34] And I've been literally driving myself crazy because I feel like I'm not enough. I feel like everyone is telling me a different answer. I feel like I can find one scripture that says this or one talk that says that, or one leader tells me that this is what I need to do. And maybe my spouse tells me this is another thing I need to do. And sometimes when I go to pray, I don't feel anything. So what's wrong with me? Nothing. You are a going through the human experience and often you're using the wrong tool. Here's where here's the big crescendo of what I wanted to do this episode today. So I go back to a client I've been working with for a while, and they struggle with a tremendous amount of religious anxiety. And so they're in such a good place now. And we were talking before I did this training with this group of ecclesiastical or church leaders, and I just said, hey, I'm going to go start talking to these people. Tell me what to work for you, because this is a person that had religious leaders seeing them and tell them that they weren't good, that they were they didn't get certain things under control, that then they would not be happy and that could affect their family and their posterity and all of that.

[00:21:35] The religious leaders in his life were saying that they didn't know how else to try to motivate this person. When reality, motivation comes through, love, motivation comes through kindness, motivation comes through saying I'm here for you. So this person told me this is the significance. And he and I've been working together for a long time that he went from this insane amount of anxiety around how do I communicate with the divine? How do I communicate with God? And then setting up so many different arbitrary rules and ways to try to communicate. And so if he felt like he had a day or a moment or even an hour, a second, or he felt OK, I think I feel like I'm doing OK or I think I'm communicating with God or connecting with the divine, then how do I continue to replicate that? And so then oftentimes it would be, OK, I need to read longer or I need to pray more. And then if I all of the sudden thought a bad thought, which is human, then I didn't do it right. I'm going to go back and reassess. Maybe I need to start confessing to my ecclesiastical leader. And then so I'm texting him. I'm confessing to my religious leader. And if my religious leader tells me I'm OK. But I still maybe had a bad thought or I didn't do things perfectly, then maybe that's because I didn't confess everything.

[00:22:47] This is called scrupulously, by the way. I've never done a specific episode on it, but it's religious OCD, OCD of religious thought. And it is an anxiety mess because OCD attacks, what is important to you? And so when I'm working with somebody unscrupulously, you're fighting against, as you are even telling them, anything that maybe feels like it goes against their moral code or it goes against their religious beliefs or their scriptures that they read or that talks that they digest, then you may be representing the adversary, Satan, Beelzebub, the father of lies, the pawns, pitchfork, all of that sort of thing. But so this scrupulously causes this person to just overthinking, overthink religiosity, which is something that had been something so important to them. So as I'm talking with this person, he says he has to go from, do I communicate? How do I communicate with the divine to then for a while? And this is easy to talk about in my office, but sometimes people get really scared if I mention this out in the wild. But he had to go to this place where he had to say, OK, I had to accept that I may not communicate with the divine. I worry that there even is a divine. And that might be frightening. Sometimes I say that all of a sudden we're learning to do the trapeze training without the net underneath us. And that can be really, really scary.

[00:24:01] And if you are watching this on my YouTube channel, I'm going to go big with my hands here, because this makes so much sense to me now. So over here is where he's at. And I've got my hands are on the left. So this picture there on the left hand side, that is the place where you're trying to figure out how what are these rules, what are the ways that I communicate with God or what are the ways if I go back to these two stages of life, what are the ways where I just figure out life? Because I've got everybody telling me something different, my parents saying that you should marry this person or you should have this career or I'm seeing this on Instagram or I'm seeing this influencer say this or this product will make me happy or my friend is doing this and maybe I want to do that, too, or I see this guy that I run into and he makes a lot of money. So maybe I should do what he's doing. Or in that religious context, it's I should be reading my scriptures more. I should be praying more. I should do more service. I should be I should be showing any extra skin. I shouldn't be all these things that were just driving us crazy, making up all these rules in order. We're hoping that that will get us closer to God.

[00:24:58] But in reality, it's pushing us further away. Or, we're hoping in life that that's going to give us the answers. But in reality, it's making us more confused because we're doing this all wrong. We really are. So when I get people to this point where they can even accept this fact that they maybe are this this desire for control or this desire to figure things out is actually the very problem. That they are struggling with the most, that they drop the rope, that tug of war with trying to figure these things out. And at this point now I move over here to the right hand side of me. And so now is where whether we're talking in a religious context or we're just talking in a life context, this is where I say that the therapy model, I love acceptance and commitment therapy is in line with the religious teachings as well. So act and this I say act in the gospel in either of these. You are the only unique version of you that's ever walked the face of the earth. Whether that means that you are the child of God and you have divine purpose and heritage, and you've been given a certain set of beliefs or a certain set of talents and blessings, or in this acceptance and commitment therapy model. You are the only version of you with all of your thoughts and feelings and emotions and experiences.

[00:26:12] You can see that we're going to start building from the ground up over here. And as we do that, as you really start to find your sense of purpose, I did an episode a couple of weeks ago about values. And as you start to realize what really matters to me and it's unique to me and we may that's a journey in itself, we may not really have the same idea or a value around service as someone else or even honesty as someone else. And I use that example so often because it's so powerful, where someone grows up in a home where there was absolute chaos and no honesty. They may have a value of just absolute brutal honesty, even to the point where they may offend someone. But if you grew up in a home where you were just brutally raked through the coals with honesty, that honesty was used as a weapon. Well, I'm just being honest then you may not to value honesty in that same way you they value compassion or you may value connection. I give this example a couple of weeks ago. I have this value of curiosity and knowledge. So when I'm starting to feel down instead of trying to go, I don't feel this way. Why do I feel this way? What's wrong with me for feeling this way? I need to change the way I feel. All those are the wrong tools.

[00:27:19] They really are. It's oh, my gosh, I notice that I'm feeling that way. And now let me pull out my phone and turn to my value of curiosity and knowledge and start looking at things around me and finding out fun facts about them and then sharing with others and connecting. So we are all these these we're made up of our own experiences or were our children of God, whichever version of that you want to go with right now. But over here on this, as you're redefining or rebuilding who you are, the more you discover your own unique sense of self and sense of purpose and lean into that and start to just really work with that, the more authentic you can become, the more value based you can become. You're going to raise your emotional baseline and you're going to start to be more confident. And as you're more confident, you're going to start to find yourself around more like minded people. People are going to be driven to you or you're going to be moving toward people that you really feel a connection with. And here's the cool part that is going to be where people start to feel like they, oh, my gosh, this is the connection that I've always wanted with the divine, with God, with people. And so that's why I did this thing where I'm moving from this left side of me over to the right.

[00:28:27] When I go back to this client who was struggling with this religious OCD or this anxiety and trying to just figure all of these variables out that and then realize they're OK, they're a human being with all their own experiences, then they started to feel like maybe I am OK. And lo and behold, what breaks through from the clouds in the sky, a relationship with the divine or a confidence that they didn't feel before, or a lessening of that anxiety, because all of a sudden now they're starting to feel like, oh, my gosh, I think I think I'm starting to understand who I am now. Does that mean that then rainbows, unicorns, pots of gold and live happily ever after? No, but we're on our way because this is where I talked about a few weeks ago, this concept of differentiation. Doing it with my hands again. But picture your hands and together enmeshed. And so we are this enmeshed, codependent person with our spouse, with our church, with our parents, with our community. And so as we start to move toward a interdependent, differentiated feeling my sense of purpose self, as we break away from these these codependent investments, we're going to feel a tremendous amount of invalidation because the people around us go back to the stage Three view are going to say, no, no, no, don't do it. You shouldn't do that. I know what's best for you, even though you've been trying to to work under that under that set of circumstances for how? Well, this is the part where trusting that you're a child of God or trusting that you are the only version of you that's ever walked the face to the earth.

[00:29:59] And as you start to lean into that, you are going to start to feel more of a sense of purpose and confidence. And as you do that and as you learn this concept of differentiation. Now, when that invalidation comes, when somebody tells you, I think you should do this, it's no longer this battle of I, what do I do? I've tried that. It doesn't work. You don't understand me. And then. Feeling, Oh, but I don't want to let this person down. They might not like me before I know it, I'll be abandoned. But over in this other side, this differentiated world, then that's where when people are offering you the things that they think they think you should do, I look at it as if they are offering you now a platter of suggestions. Well, I think you should do this from a differentiated standpoint. It's OK. What I'm starting to really feel my sense of self and purpose, because I'm not trying to do what everybody else is telling me, because I'm not trying to do what everybody else thinks I should do. So I'm starting to try to lean into more of what I believe is right for me.

[00:30:54] But I will gladly take a look at your platter of suggestions. And if you're a safe person, if we've had some nice for pillared conversations and I trust you, then now all of a sudden I can think, OK, I think you might have a point there. I mean, I love when my wife will share with me in a very healthy, safe for pillared, productive way. Hey, I've noticed you've maybe been doing this lately. Tell me more about that. And that's the time where I might be able to say I did not really notice. Let me give you a concrete example. I sometimes give these generic examples and she always says be a little more specific with so many guys I work with. And maybe it's not just a guy thing, but I would realize that my wife stay at home mom four kids growing up. And there were days where my emotional baseline was flying high and I would come home and kids, let's go out to dinner and let's go buy all the things and let's get a toy in the store and let's plan a vacation. And then a couple of days later, I might have paid some bills or something. Maybe we might not have gotten some of this back in myself for days, but maybe we lost a deal or something didn't go right. And so then I come home and if the kids say, hey, dad, so do we go buy the toy and go out to lunch at the vacation, all a sudden I'm saying, geez, guys, come on.

[00:32:02] That's so we can't just do that all the time. You can't just spend all the money and that sort of thing. And so it was my wife at one time said, hey, sometimes we're not quite sure which version of you we're going to get when you walk in the door. That hurt. But I was so grateful because I was starting to find myself, my sense of purpose, starting to build up my emotional baseline. And she was a safe person. And she did that in a very safe, healthy, productive way. So I was able to take a look at her platter of suggestions and say, OK, man, that one hurts. So often, talk about were so afraid of contention that we avoid tension altogether. Tension is really where that growth hits. So I took a look at what she was sharing with me and I thought, man, I think you're on to something here. And that was years ago. Decade plus ago. And to this day, I still have to bring myself back to some awareness of when all of a sudden I'm coming home saying, let's go do all the things that other times where I come home. And I think I don't want to do any of the things we're doing, too many of the things.

[00:32:58] But I have to realize that's something that I need to come to terms with or I need to cope with or I need to get to presents with before I then just blurred that out to the family, because all of a sudden then they're feeling like what's wrong with them? Because sometimes they say, let's go to dinner and dad goes, woo. Sometimes they say, let's go to dinner dad says, bro come on. You can't believe you're saying that. So that's what that differentiation looks like. So when you're over here, there are side this other path. And I have to tell you, I was running this through a lot of clients the last two or three weeks, and I really wanted to name the place before I did this episode, because I wanted to say, as you get over to differentiation land, and I don't think that sounds very exciting place to go. But then over here, this is where you find your sense of self and purpose and your emotional baseline side and differentiation land. That's where you can say, OK, thank you for your opinion. Other people that have had your own experiences, that have not had my experiences, I'd love to process these things with you. But it's ultimately still my journey. And as you become more comfortable with that, then that becomes a place for you. I believe that you can be a bigger presence to be there, to lift up others around you, whether it's in your religious community where people will naturally gravitate to the person they feel like is living their authentic self and has this maybe deeper connection to God.

[00:34:18] And it's not that connection where they're afraid of what they will say because they're ecclesiastical leader may punish them. Just continuing on being a little bit here. There's an episode I did on Leading Saints a few years ago where I talked about in this religious context, again, that I really do feel at my core that when people are taking this the sacrament, the cracker and grape juice or the bread and water at their congregation to renew their covenant with God from baptism or whatever that process is for them, that in some religious organizations, they say, hey, if you haven't been if you haven't done things right, then don't take the bread and water for a couple of weeks. And I was on going to you is two or three years ago saying so I and my differentiated sense of self feel like that is not helpful. And I feel very confident with that. And helping 15, 16, maybe 17 hundred individuals start to put some distance between turning to porn as an unhealthy coping mechanism. Plug for my path back recovery program. Go, go find it, because it's just, gosh, we creating a cool community now. But I.

[00:35:19] Feel like people should have two pieces of bread. They should have a bigger cup of water. I really do, because I want them to have more hope. I want them to feel like there is more of a sense of purpose and self. And so I feel like that is such a big part of who I am as somebody that is in the helping and healing profession. Now, am I telling people who disagree that they're absolutely wrong? No. They can have their experience because that's their experience, because of the things that they've been through. But I can only be authentic. That's all I can do. And the reason I bring this part up is someone was asking me, actually, a lot of people have asked me from time to time. Well, what if then you saying that precludes you from getting a higher calling or higher office in your church? And that's where I go back over here in differentiation land over here. Well, OK. I'm not saying I don't care and I don't care like it's a bad thing way, but it's well, I don't even really I would have to go back over into this other land to then remember the times where I didn't feel like I could be authentic because I was afraid that someone would maybe not give me a new calling or somebody would not want me to be a part of their spiritual team. Where now I know that I am OK.

[00:36:31] I am enough. I am worthy. I am of worth. I am a child of God. I am the only version of me. And I have never felt more of a connection with the divine or with myself or with the people around me than as I have dropped that rope in a tug of war and trying to be the person that other people are telling me that I should probably maybe be sometimes, but sometimes not. And sometimes the rules change to this person that I am. And the more I lean into that, yes, it's going to come with some differentiation. I stand getting more and more people that will email me now and say, well, I disagree and that's OK, 100 percent. But the number of people that email me and say thank you for sharing this experience that I feel is similar to those are tenfold, because we want to be heard. We want to be understood. And so as you find your way over into this differentiation land, doggone it, I should come up with a cooler thing first. Be prepared to feel some of those pangs of invalidation. But it's OK. We need to get you finding out who you are, your sense of self, your sense of purpose into this stage, five of a life where life is more of a mystery and paradox. And now you can return to your faith community or you can return to your your family community without feeling stuck in a theological box or without feeling stuck in a life box, a familial box that you get to be you.

[00:37:54] Even if that version of you is someone that other people don't agree with, because bless their hearts, they aren't you. I have so much more to say on this, but I'm going to wrap it up right now because we're pushing 40 minutes. But thanks for taking the time to listen. I'm the world's worst promoter. I would have said at the beginning of this that my magnetic message course is coming soon. I probably. Stories or whatever. So go to Tony Overbay.com/magnetic if you want to be ready. I think it's launching in the second or third week of September. And my Pathbackrecovery.com first go there. I just launched a new podcast called Waking Up the Narcissism. Please go find and subscribe that. Subscribe to that. There's a trailer out. And my main man, my my guy, Nate Christianson, who's in the office now, just released the first episode of he and his wife's podcast called Working Change. They're talking about secondary emotions. It's amazing. So thank you so much for taking the time. I would love to hear your thoughts. Feel free to shoot them over to me at any point through my website. TonyBay.com and I look forward to maybe doing a part one and a half of this in the not too distant future. All right. Have an amazing day.

Tony welcomes Magnetic Marriage co-creator Preston Pugmire, host of the Next Level Life Podcast, and award-winning life coach, onto the show to talk about the steps of accountability, and how moving from an unconscious reactor to a conscious creator will have immediate and long-lasting positive effects on everything in your life, from your marriage and parenting to business and personal development. You can work with Preston individually by contacting him on Instagram @preston.pugmire, Facebook https://www.facebook.com/prestonpugmire1 or through his website http://prestonpugmire.com

Sign up today to be the first to know when the next round of The Magnetic Marriage Course will launch http://tonyoverbay.com/magnetic

-------------------- TRANSCRIPT --------------------

[00:00:00] Hey, everybody, welcome to Episode 280 of the Virtual Couch, I am your host, Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist certified by Vilaboa, coach, author, speaker, father for all of those things and creator of the Path Back. And I cannot stress enough the momentum that is happening over at Pathbackrecovery.com. We have a powerful, strength based group that is growing and growing. It's helping people get past the shame and help people stop turning to pornography as a coping mechanism while addressing the areas of their life that may not quite be in alignment with their values, their goals, their entire sense of purpose, areas that I like to call the voids, meaning that when people don't feel connected in their marriage or their parenting or their careers or their health or their faith, that is when they often turn to the siren song of an unhealthy coping mechanism. So the Path Back is a program like none other, and it is changing lives. It has changed hundreds and hundreds of people's lives. So if you are anybody that, you know, is struggling to put pornography behind them once and for all, become the person that they always wanted to be the world's greatest husband or father or employer or employee or contributor to society, then go to Pathbackrecovery.com and download a short ebook that describes five common myths that people fall prey to when trying to move past pornography once and for all.

[00:01:09] Again, that's pathbackrecovery.com. And go follow me on Instagram, a virtual couch as well as on Facebook. Tony Overbay, licensed marriage, a family therapist, or just head over to TonyOverbay.com and sign up to get my newsletter and go there. Now, also sign up to to find out more about the magnetic marriage course. The next round is coming soon. So that is it. You're going to love today's episode. My guest is one of the few people that I feel matches maybe even exceeds my own level of energy. And we are we're going deep today. And you're going to hear me talk about something that I have never, ever talked about because before it used to bother me so bad. But with the help of my guest, it is now but a mere story along my personal journey. And I am so, so grateful for that. So let's get to today's episode of The Virtual Couch.

[00:02:08] Come on, take a seat.

[00:02:12] So I'm going to start with a story, I am a very old man. I'm fifty one. I think I'm pushing fifty two and I'm talking when I was in my 20s. So this is 30 years ago, older probably than my guess that I will announce very soon. And if you've already seen in the notes, it's my buddy Preston Pug, my Preston. Are you under the age of 30.

[00:02:32] Just 30. I am not under the age of 30 my friend.

[00:02:35] Ok, but so I go back probably twenty five, twenty six years ago. I'm with a group of friends. My wife's there with me and we go to this magician. It was in the Salt Lake area. I remember his name was Vander Mead and he brought people up on stage and he said a bunch of things and they did the classic cluck like a chicken or or bark like a dog or that sort of thing. But one of my friends were close to me, goes up on stage and they have her like her hands together and she can pull your hands apart. And I know that she was hesitant to even go up there. And finally he just taps her on her head and she comes back down. And I said, what has happened? And I've never seen this look in my whole life. She said, I have no idea what has happened. And I can still whenever I see her today, I can say he would say this thing hands Lukken tighter and tighter. So if I say that to her, then all of a sudden she gets this weird look on her face to this day. And I always thought, man, that's fascinating. Fast forward last year, about a year and a half ago, Preston and I are preparing the materials for our magnetic marriage course. And there's a particular module that's really about taking ownership, taking control of your life. And Preston had said to me, don't tell me anything about a particular issue that maybe you have a challenge with and bring it in. And we're going to film it live. And I'm going to work this module with you.

[00:03:48] And I thought, oh, that's that'll be cute. This will be fun. And so I bring in this thing, though, that was Eat Me Alive. It really was. And I am telling you, by the time we were done with this module, all of a sudden I'm now like my friend coming off the stage from me and I'm just sitting there thinking, I have no idea what just happened, but I really don't care about this thing that was driving me crazy. And here we are. What's it been now over a year since we probably did that person. And to this day, even in preparation for our podcast today, I tried to think about this thing in and give it some energy and it just isn't there. And I don't and I've said to president, I don't know what voodoo you did on me, but it was amazing. And it's part of our course. And yes, this isn't the sales pitch of of course, we are about to launch another round, so we would love for you to go and sign up for it. Tony Overbay, dot com slash magnetic. It's coming on September 13th. Thirteenth. Yeah, starting on thirteen. So we would love for you to do that. But I have been telling Preston I want to get him on the podcast for so long to talk about this module. And so I really want you to drive. I want you to talk about what is the voodoo or magic that you did. Could you snap your fingers right now and all of a sudden I'm Barkett saying something weird.

[00:04:54] Ok, so I love that you're talking about this. So I'm not a hypnotist.

[00:04:59] Ok, fair point. OK, yeah.

[00:05:02] But what I am is a life coach for business owners and entrepreneurs and just people who are interested in designing their life, people who are interested, they're drifting, they're a little bit stuck. And if they're crushin and some areas and then they have some things that just like a little bit of blocks. And so I help them remove those blocks. But one of the things that I did with you, let's take it back to Vandeman. I mean, like he said, he had her put her fingers together and clasp them. Then she couldn't unlock them. Yeah, but what I'm going to do and what we're going to do during this podcast is we're going to pull back the curtain. We're going to reveal like what that looks like and what it means, not from the hands clasped together perspective, but from what it means to allow yourself to remove the blocks in your life, the things that you keep running over and over and over in your head, the the parts of your life where you're stuck either in your business or in your relationship or in your personal life, just like your relationship with your creator or in your health and fitness.

[00:06:03] These are the areas of life where you can get stuck. And the thing that's fascinating to me is that when people have the courage to be able to understand how to take control, then it becomes simple analogy that I use is if you're driving along, you've got this amazing Lamborghini, you just bought it and it's just phenomenal. And you're so excited to drive it. And you get in there and you go, you push the gas down and it won't go like, why isn't this what is is going like? It's just like it feels like you're driving it through water and what's happening. So you get on like maybe it needs different fuel. So you change the octane level on the fuel, then maybe it needs oil change because it's still feeling sluggish. Or maybe I need a new seat covers. So I get new seat covers is a metaphor by the way, and covers and you try that and it's not working like, oh, what should I do that needs a different color. So you paint the thing and it just won't go. Won't go. Don't go, and it turns out you had the outbreak engaged the whole time

[00:07:12] And maybe done that before, and so

[00:07:15] The emergency brake doesn't prevent the car from moving at all. It just if you drive it with the brake engaged, it just makes the car smell funny. And and it just like feels like you're just there's something you can't break through it. That's what I hope people do, is release the emergency break in their life so that they can use the same amount of effort. If you ever release the emergency brake on the Lamborghini, all of a sudden you push the gas, same amount of effort as before. Everything just works. And so if people are feeling stuck in their life of feeling, drifting in their life, not really sure exactly what they're doing, what their purposes or something like that, dude. Understanding how to take control, releasing that emergency brake and then being able to be intentional about what you're doing, what your values are, where you're needed to take accountability and then just moving forward is that's the key to be able to break through to that next level. And that's what we need to do.

[00:08:15] We did. And you said the word, I very much enjoy accountability. And I feel like that was the part when we dropped this module in the magnetic marriage course, I didn't realize how significant it would be. And anybody that's hopefully that's listening. They've heard the episodes that we've done about the four pillars of a connected conversation and. Yeah. And all of those things. But you can set up that framework to have a productive conversation. But oftentimes when people are no longer in tit-for-tat mode or pursue withdrawal and they are having the conversation all sudden, there's some stuff that's getting aired. In one of the biggest pieces I didn't realize till we put that module in there is now somebody has to take ownership of it now. Somebody has to take accountability of what they're now what we're putting out there. And that's why I felt like this module was it was a lot more it was more powerful than I anticipated.

[00:09:00] Yeah. And so with this thing that's really, really important is to recognize that it's not about blame. When we talk like that, what we're going to talk about today and just in your life and stuff. And when I work with my clients, we remove the word blame and fault from the conversation because it's you get screwed either way because you're saying, oh, when I'm blaming somebody else. I'm giving them power over my emotions, my reaction, my stubbornness, my situation, like I'm giving them that power. But the flip side of that picture, a pendulum. And over here, the pendulum and you put it right here and this is unhealthy blaming of other people. And if you let it go and you're not being you're not controlling it and create being intentional about creating what you're doing, then it'll swing all the way over to the other end. And then you're going to say, oh, well, I'm going to just take accountability and then blame myself. Yeah. And you get to judge yourself super harsh. And so think about this, Tony, if you ever blame somebody else for something. Yes. Yes. How does that work out for you?

[00:10:12] But it doesn't. And I feel like it is sometimes that's just is impulsive thing that we do because we just we want somebody to blame because it couldn't be anybody but himself.

[00:10:20] But here's the thing. Have you ever blamed yourself for something?

[00:10:22] Yes, that is.

[00:10:23] How does that work

[00:10:25] Out for you? It doesn't get anywhere either.

[00:10:27] Exactly. So this is my philosophy. You don't blame others. Don't blame yourself. This is the shift that gets to happen because what successful people and by successful I'm talking about like happy people who are emotionally mature and able to move through life as a conscious creator, those type of people are they are not people who are stuck in the blaming aspect of it. And it because here's the thing. It's not about blame or fault. What it is, is about understanding your role in the situation, even if you didn't like, even if you weren't like at fault, and when you understand your role in the situation, remove the fault and the blame from it, then you can actually create something that works moving forward, because people that are stuck, people that are unconscious, people that are reacting, people that are drifting, people that are holding grudges and not being able to live the life that they want to live. Those people are stuck in the blame cycle, whether it's with other people or with themselves. And it is a real paradigm shift to get out of the blame energy and get into the 100 percent accountability. And here's a here's a good example of this. And we talk about this is with a red light. If you are at a red light and you have driven there with your hands are at 10 and two and you're driving the speed limit, you're not talking on your cell phone. You're not texting. You're just you're being a good driver, conscious driver. Then you stop at a stoplight and then, boom, you get rear ended. It's so easy, our brain wants to I guarantee the people that are listening to this, their brain is going to fight against what I'm about to say.

[00:12:31] I knew that I was thinking about this one earlier. This is. Yeah.

[00:12:34] And what if I told you that if you removed the word fault, and I'm not talking from an insurance perspective, yeah, OK, let the insurance people at the place look OK. You were parked. You were at a red light. It's not your fault. It is their fault. But if you take that out of the equation, what it allows you to do is move forward, because if you say no, it's their fault. I was doing everything right there to blame then. OK, you've given all your power to them in that situation, and I am and I'm not I'm not talking about insurance. So the question to ask yourself is instead of, well, what's my fault in this? You just say, what's my role in this? And so if I ask you that, what's your role in getting rear ended,

[00:13:28] It's so funny because even though I know where we're going with this, I still find myself wanting to say, OK, but it's really not my brother that I mean, it's not the word fault. The role was I was in a car sitting at a red light and a car ran into me. That was my role. I was there. I drove over there.

[00:13:45] I drove there. Yeah, you there. And I've been hit like I've been hit in a car where it wasn't my fault from the insurance perspective. But here's the deal, man. Like. You were there, and sometimes that's all it takes, because if you really think about it. If you weren't there, you wouldn't have gone. And so

[00:14:07] No judgment, judgment, no

[00:14:08] Judgment. And that's the thing is it was like, well, me being there didn't warrant like, that's a pretty aggressive punishment for the crime of being at that red light greed, man. Absolutely. Greed, again, not what we're talking about, because when you do that, you go down the path of. Well, yeah, but yeah, but and it turns into so this will get into what you were dealing with when we did this module in my office. But like when you have a situation that occupies your mental state and you can easily rehearse it and you can tell the story to yourself or to other people, and it gives you any sort of negative energetics when you talk about emotional energy and it gives you any of that. Then chances are you are you are holding on to it and you're giving it power. Yeah. And so when you say if you're at the red light, you be like, oh, I was there. I got hit. What what am I going to do about it now? What am I committed to as I move forward? What is it? Because there's a lot of questions you can ask yourself and we'll get into those. But I just wanted to set that up in the context of, like, accountability and what your role is and things so that we could have this conversation. So go for them when you came in and tell me where you're at and then what you experienced as we had the accountability and the taking control

[00:15:40] Situation, I have the full confession. Your person I went and found our module and then I watched this part again because I just wanted to feel that you could feel my energy as I was describing this event that happened for the first time. And I can't even get back to that place from a negative energy standpoint. But so I shared with Preston something that I still have only shared it in our course. But it was this experience where for six years I ran around a track in my local city and I did that to raise money for kids and schools. Sounds very noble. And it was an entire community event. One year I ran 111 miles. The peak year was one hundred twenty five miles. I would come out in a limousine, somebody donated and the kids are all around the track and the middle school band learned to play Rocky or eye of the tiger in the news, was there every year, and I would run with the kids all day during their PE classes and they would all come out and there was photo ops and everything. And then at night we would have this community event.

[00:16:35] There will be food trucks and there would be a deejay and people would stay all night and run with me around this track and there would be lights and people are playing kickball and soccer on the infield of the track and there's tents set up. And then when I finally finish and cross the finish line at eight a.m. the next morning, then there's a community five K that was held. And so it was an amazing event and it raised thousands of dollars every year. It was back when there were budget cuts happening and there were threats of removing school sports and music and all kinds of art. And so we were doing this to raise money and to build this sense of community. And it was one of the greatest things that I've been a part of. And it was scary when I volunteered to do it and my kids all went through that middle school. And so they got to be the person that their dad is doing this thing and running the track. And it was amazing. Preston So that sounds cool.

[00:17:24] I can feel it. I can tell you're leading up to about to break my heart, man.

[00:17:30] Yes, I am. So year seven, I'm still I'm excited. I really am. And it's in the November time frame. I remember very well. And I'm at a wedding reception, as a matter of fact. And the event was always in April or May. So we're months before the event. And someone came up to me and they just said, hey, I don't know, I just want to I just want to let you know, give you a little heads up that there's a new there's new people in the parent teacher organization and the new parents there and there's new administrator at the school. And I just want to let you know they're going to let you know they don't want to do your event anymore. And I just I was devastated because all the things I just shared with you, I've received dozens and dozens, if not hundreds of of emails about people that were saying they finally were able to go out, exercise or connect with their kids. I spoke at all the schools. I would get recognized everywhere I went from people saying that's the guy that runs or that sort of thing. And so right here over a punch bowl at a wedding of somebody I barely knew, I'm being told, yeah, we don't really want you to do that anymore.

[00:18:30] Thanks. And what did it feel like then?

[00:18:32] It felt horrible. And I just felt like I didn't even know what to say. And I remember feeling just so invalidated and unappreciated. I wanted to just defend myself. I went to my wife and I said that they're taking the run away there. And she's like, What are you talking about? And I could even get all the words out because I just thought, but this is what we do. This is our community thing. This is what this is. So this is a great thing. And just I just got told. Yeah. New people and they said it's too much work. And then I started feeling all of these emotions around. They think it's too much work. But the guy running the hundred and twenty five miles that also goes and takes time off of work, the two or three weeks leading up to it and goes and speaks at all the schools and tries to get kids motivated and then tries to get people to and goes and talks to the corporations and tries to get donations and but they don't want to take the Friday off and go out there. Right. Anyway.

[00:19:23] And there we go. I mean, we've seen what's happening right now. I can tell you there's elevation. It's not like you're emotionally elevated, but there's a different energy behind it now than there was before. Yeah, because now it's remembrance rather than current. Yeah, because you can just get yourself out of it now. Absolutely. Oh, so. Well, one of the things, of course, with people that I work with, they have there's so many, so many opportunities to have this type of a thing, whether it's with your spouse, whether it's with your job. It's with your boss, whether it's with your kids, so many opportunities to get elevated. A lot of people say triggered, right? Yeah, you get triggered by things and. I am again, I'm not talking about your fault, but when you realize and recognize your role in this situation, it allows you to take the power back emotionally that you had given to them that they didn't even know that you had given them. They have no idea how you're feeling this way, that it's affecting you as much. I've had so many things in my life with just acquaintances, with friends, with family members and things where they didn't know that I was giving them this power and I was allowing them to direct and dictate the direction of my life. And so that's what happens with drifting men. We use that word a lot, but so often we just either are stuck or we're drifting.

[00:20:56] And it's because we're waiting for something external to to create an emotional situation for us. And so the language that I use is it's unconscious reactor vs. conscious creator. So when I say unconscious, what I mean is you're just simply not aware because. When we have limiting beliefs, we don't recognize them as limiting beliefs, we recognize them as observed facts, and somebody who is reacting to things in their life is thinking that they are just being acted upon by all these external sources and they're just simply reacting to everything. But really what's happening is that they are allowing. These external sources to be the origin of their emotional state. OK, and so when you show up that way, then you're never going to be able to get out of that loop. It's a really self reinforcing loop. And that's why I said it takes courage to do this, because, like, when I work with clients in the next level of life, what it looks like is when they are committed at a level 10, they are they have the courage to be able to say, I am going to. Take a look at myself and my circumstances from a completely different perspective. And that perspective is going to be the thing that's going to set me free and it's going to break me out of the self referencing loop that I'm in in my life.

[00:22:33] And that's what I'm talking about, being stuck or being drifting. You're just going in circles in some area of your life because you're not being intentional about it. And when I talk about designing your life, going from drift to design, a lot of times people it's the first time they've heard that because they just you grow up and you do this and you do this and then this happens and this happens and you do what you're supposed to do. And there seems to be some sort of set path for you. And you're just following the path that is somebody who is unconsciously reacting to their circumstances. And then the flip side of that is you're consciously meaning intentionally creating your circumstances and you cannot create from a victimhood state. OK, everything is acting from the right. If everything is acting to you and at you, if you're being acted upon in every aspect of your life, then you are in a victimhood state and you cannot take accountability from that state and then you cannot create from that state. I know that a lot of things rhyme there that's on it. But yeah. So talk about what it felt like to move from unconscious reactor with this situation, with the run to conscious creator where you're taking control of your emotions.

[00:23:57] Yeah. And let me OK, I'm going to riff here for a second because I do it really I really like what you're saying. And I don't remember thinking this at the time that we did the module. But if I go into good old my therapist lingo of abandonment, attachment, that sort of thing, and I really do remember feeling like it didn't feel like me, even though I did feel like I was this unconscious reactor and that I was down on myself. I was sad, I was bitter, I was jaded, I felt stuck. I felt like I was this kind of giving myself a pity party. Those aren't things that I do by nature. And so I remember feeling like that just was it just wasn't me. And so the reason I go into that abandonment attachment stuff is I really did. And I know I've talked to you about this. It's in our course. I've done a bunch of podcasts about it when we get our attention young a certain way. So if we are typically used to getting attention by being more of a reactor, where then people are saying, oh, hey, buddy, it's OK. Well, let me help you with that or let me you know, I know a lot of people bring that energy to the table. And then but as I said earlier, it's not a mature way to deal with a situation or a subject. And so I really did find myself in conflict with not wanting to be a victim, but also almost recognizing this is some deep, I don't know, childhood abandonment wound or attachment wound where I'm wanting people to reach out and tell me it's going to be OK because I'm down. I'm having this pity party

[00:25:23] That's a trip to exactly so emotional maturity. This is the thing so fascinating is like physical maturity happens to us. It really does. No, you didn't do anything to go through puberty. It just happened at you. The same thing. All the people listening and we become adults physically without any effort. It's just a circle of life. That's right. Emotional maturity does not happen automatically. It is something that it takes so much work and so much like I use this word so often. But you get to create it intentionally. You if you're not doing it on purpose, it does not happen. Yeah. And so emotional maturity is the ability to ask yourself the right questions and. Seek self validation instead of external validation. Yeah, and and when you're saying, like feeling good, when you have a pity party and somebody is like validating your victimhood, it does feel good. I remember very clearly I was with a friend who had just broken up with a girl and I was talking to him and I call it like, I'm not going to buy your B.S. like you're selling it. I'm not buying it. And so he was telling me this stuff, this whole pity party, and its heart was broken, but.

[00:26:48] There was a lot of accountability that went into this, and it really he was in the tunnel, we've all been in the tunnel where you get broken up with and you're like just you can't see anything. You can't see the forest for the trees, I think. But I was in I was really being a person that was not being harsh with him. But I was like, hey, man, like, I know you're feeling this way right now, but. Let's look at this from a different perspective, and I'm trying to help him see it from a different perspective and that different perspective that I was trying to show him was uncomfortable and I was asking him questions that he did not want to answer right now because it would force him to not be in victimhood mode. And this is this is actually when I was in college and I was talking to him doing this, and he left the room and and he went and went somewhere and I went somewhere else to like in the course of the night, we end up and like less than an hour later, I was with another group of people and he called somebody that was with me.

[00:27:55] It was in our group of friends. He called them to complain about this situation because he knew that they would go all into, oh, man, dude, you totally got screwed over, like just buying the story, buying the B.S. And when you are surrounding yourself with people and I'm talking about like first and foremost your own self, when you surround yourself with people who are. Not going to lovingly and compassionately hold you to a higher standard of excellence so that you can reach the next level, which, oh my gosh, it is uncomfortable when somebody holds you to that standard. But when somebody lovingly and compassionately does that, it can be the biggest breakthrough that you've had because it gets you out of that, gets you out of that drifting, and you get to hold yourself to a conscious creator standard that is completely different and unconscious reactor standard. And you're no longer in victimhood, you're in accountability and you're in creation mode. And it doesn't mean you have to go create a business. It doesn't mean you have to do all these different things. So what did it do for you? I mean, talk about what I just discussed there.

[00:29:06] Yeah, yeah. No, it's so good because I really what you're saying in the it doesn't feel comfortable. I think we talk about this in the course. This is one of those things that when you brought the polarity module and accountability module to the course where we really learn we're so afraid of contention that we avoid tension altogether in that tension, when somebody is able to really say, hey, tell me what you did there, what was your role? And that can be really uncomfortable. But that tension is where I really felt like the growth came and that's where I felt like this. Aha moment when you were really saying what role did you play? Not the fault, but what role did you play? So I really didn't feel like and it wasn't as difficult as I thought either. And and I realized that when you're getting this validation through self or validation through your accomplishments or achievements, I feel like that is a whole other level or version of accomplishment or versus the when I'm getting my value or needs met through this kind of pity. But again, I feel like if people if that was the way that they grew up is that if that was the way they got their needs met, if they weren't modeled, parents bless their hearts who weren't taking ownership or accountability.

[00:30:10] I give this example often where there was a girl that I was working with and she's waiting outside of this high school gym. Her mom shows up an hour or so late to pick her up. She's the last one out there. And then she the kid gets in the car, the kid's angry and the mom says, hey, don't you raise your voice with me. Do you realize what I've been through today? And this isn't all about you? And I even thought, man, even that is modeling, not taking ownership or accountability instead of a mom even saying, I am so sorry I lost track of time or I'm sorry I'm late or I get why you're frustrated. And so a lot of times, even as adults, we don't know. We haven't had this modeled and it's scary. And so we worry that if I take ownership or accountability, then I don't know what's going to happen. Everybody's going to take away my my my driver's license or my

[00:30:55] My, my,

[00:30:56] My birthday. Yes. And they're gonna raid my bank accounts and whatever else. But instead, it's like I just say my bad and what that can feel like.

[00:31:04] Yeah. But it can feel like the end of the world to tell. Yeah. To take to take a look. So you're talking about looking at something from somebody else's perspective. I so I'd say never judge another person until you've walked a mile in their shoes because then you have their shoes and you're a mile away by the way then yeah you can judge them and there's no repercussions at that point. But when you. It what you're talking about is it's asking the right questions. Want to change your life, change the questions that you're asking. I'll give you an example. Say you're in a boat and you're out in the ocean and you've got 10 people on the boat and it starts to get sinked, I think is the correct word starts to go down. Frigging people are running around screaming, there's wind and water and everything like that. And you see a life raft and the life raft holds a maximum of nine people who. How do you decide? Which person doesn't get on the boat? So what's happening in your brain?

[00:32:18] Ok, honestly, I am the world's worst swimmer and I have a pool and my wife can swim like a champ. And so I'm very insecure about my swimming abilities. So I know I've got to do whatever I can to get on that boat. And it stinks as if I'm on land. If somebody says, hey, there's help a hundred miles away, OK, I'll go like I'll run. But on the water, please. I would like to get on the boat first.

[00:32:38] Yeah. So you went there, you went, oh, I can't swim. So again, this is a hypothetical. It's a metaphor, but. Bottom line is, think about all the listeners that are listening right now, what did you think of where did your brain go? Oh, how do we decide who gets on the boat? OK, now. How do we decide who doesn't get on the boat rather really, but nothing about this, you're going down. You're out in the middle of the ocean, people screaming water and wind everywhere, and you're going down see a life raft and it says maximum occupancy, nine people. How do you figure out a way to get all 10 people on that nine person raft?

[00:33:22] I don't know, I'm still worried about here's the thing,

[00:33:24] I'm not against this metaphor, but where does your brain go? It goes it opens a different door. Yeah. And it walks down a different path. And you're going to get to a different answer to change your life, change the questions that you're asking. If you say to yourself, how do we figure out who doesn't get on the boat? You're going to answer the question.

[00:33:46] Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. This is good.

[00:33:48] But if you say to yourself, how do we figure out

[00:33:50] How do we get all 10?

[00:33:51] How do we get ten people on the nine person boat? You're asking different questions. You're going to get a different answer. You're going to arrive at a different solution. And because you're thinking you're thinking at the level of the solution, not at the level of the problem.

[00:34:05] I like what you said there is that I was so honestly, I'm going to sound dramatic here, but I was so focused on just the swimming part that I didn't even hear you change the question. And so I feel and I feel like that's what people will often they're so in fight or flight mode or they're already like down that path, who knows how long. And so they're not even present or hearing the question.

[00:34:26] That's the value of a coach or a therapist because they come in and you can they can ask you a question that is something you've never thought of before or something that's got you a little bit like. I work with people who are willing to and ready to make a decision to make a change. They're not interested in the illusion of change. They're interested in actual change and. When you change the question, for example, when what how about this, what questions were you asking yourself after the people closed down your brother?

[00:35:00] It was all kinds of things like we don't understand the value of the run or why didn't they can ask me first or why didn't they go to me to find out how much work it was or those kind of.

[00:35:10] Yeah, valid, valid, valuable questions. So for the listener, like, if you're listening and you're thinking, OK, there's this situation or there's a circumstance with my life, with my money, with my relationship, something. And your brain will be like, yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but they did say that, yeah but he did do that. Yeah. But that they did screw me over in that way. And it cost more than they said there was something like that. I'm not talking about pretending that the situation isn't there. I'm just talking about asking a different question in the situation with the lifeboat. We're not talking about how do we pretend that the lifeboat or how do we pretend the boat isn't going down, but it's freaking going down. You know, what we're doing is we're asking a different question so we can get a different result. We're focused on the solution. So if you if you ask yourself. Why do I always mess this up? Or if you ask yourself what's wrong with me or if you ask yourself, how can I make this better on the surface, that sounds like a good question. But what you're doing is you're looking for all the problems, right? Or if you say what's how come nobody how come things don't work out for me or how come I can't seem to break through this? OK, that is the that is asking the question.

[00:36:27] It's the equivalent of in the metaphor it's asking is how do we figure out who doesn't get on the life boat. Yeah. So you change the question and it can be a small tweak. But here so here's some of the questions that I asked people in the context of the how to take control exercised. Right. The accountability exercise. There's four steps of accountability. First one, you guys just recognize that it's not about like your emotional state is not about them. This is not with you in the running situation, your emotional reaction to that was not about what, it wasn't about them, it was about your reaction to it. And that's really it's a hard thing to get through. But the second one, here's here's some of the questions. Second step is to ask different questions, which is how did I contribute to this show? So if you say, why do why did they screw me over or why didn't they come ask me or why don't they know how much how good this is for the community? I also like that. Yeah, you're going to get a different question, a different answer. But if you ask yourself. How did I contribute to this? What energy did I bring to the table? And then my favorite question asked. Yeah, what was I pretending not to know then?

[00:37:41] That one right there. And that's the part that I know we talk about that in the course. We've done that in the group coaching. That's been the most powerful part, I think, of some of the group coaching calls we've done. And that's the thing I brought into my office that has been so powerful, that part right there. I've got a couple in my office and asking one of them. Yeah, what what was I pretending not to know? And I think about that one a lot. And if you go through these questions that you're asking right now to what energy they bring to the table, if I'm being honest with myself, I really had let the control of the entire event over the years be in the hands of someone else when the entire time if I was being honest, I knew I probably could have. And most likely I always say I don't want to shoot on myself, but I probably should have still taken control of it. But I wanted other people to do it so I could be this. I come on the track to Rocky Run and the Hero or Save the day, and I wasn't willing to admit that at the time.

[00:38:36] So when I look back on that and what energy I bring to the table, how did I contribute to the situation is I didn't have control of that run to begin with. I had handed that out to other people. And that was something that I wasn't willing to confront at the time that I remember so powerfully when you were taking me through this exercise that and I never even expressed that before. And then so then that what was I pretending not to know? I still remember I was pretending not to know that someday the run might end or I was pretending not to know that other people may have a different view of what would raise money for the school or other people may now have a completely different energy around the concept of doing some run for twenty four hours. Or I was pretending not to know that there were a lot of other people involved behind the scenes and that there and I didn't know what their experience was and so much.

[00:39:21] They're perfect, man. You were ready to go for it. You were willing to do it. And so from there you get to the third step, which is what's your lesson? So what? So once you understood, like how you contributed to it, how you created it, allowed it to happen, what was your lesson to take away from that? And I'm not even talking about like with the run necessarily. I'm just talking about your what is the lesson to be gleaned from that for you?

[00:39:48] Yeah, for me, it really was. If I wanted to make that, if I was giving it the importance that I thought that I was giving it, that I needed to take ownership of it more, basically, I needed to take accountability or ownership for this run itself, that I was pretending not to know that I could have played a much bigger role in the organization of the the downtime during the off season. All of that. There was so much there that I needed to learn. And since that time I have and I love that you said that, I didn't even really put that together. But in any project that I'm working on since that since we even went through that, I tried to say, OK, I need to make sure that I am if this is a project that I feel passionate about, then I need to be involved in this project, because if not, then I need to be willing to accept the fact that it may go a different direction.

[00:40:36] Yeah, perfect. And so how and then this goes into the step four, which is what are you committed to as you as you take that lesson and implement it? What is it that you're committed to as you move forward?

[00:40:52] Yeah, for me then it's if I am going to be involved in a project and I really feel like it's something that I want to invest my time and energy into, then I need to take ownership and accountability of the project and my role in it and not just sit back and just let it happen and then get the butt hurt, as the kids say, when when all of a sudden it isn't going the way I want it to. That's how I can't.

[00:41:14] So how has that shifted so from last year to now, how has that shifted the way that you interact with people in your business and in your family and in your life

[00:41:25] Ownership, taking ownership and accountability? I felt like that was something that I was pretty good at, but I feel like I wasn't even aware of the level of things that I maybe would just pass along is something that I wasn't taking accountability or ownership. And so now it's it goes from everything. If I didn't get back to somebody instead of, oh, man, I meant to get back to you, it's hey, I completely spaced responding back to your text or I didn't write that down or my my bad is become something that has been so powerful. And every day I have to tell you, there was a an ecclesiastical leader that I was working with that I was there paying for someone's services and they owed me a little bit of money. And so I was sending this invoice out and I'm getting nothing back, nothing back. And I start to get really frustrated and I don't know how to be frustrated. I'm a very kind person in general, so I'm trying to muster up this. OK, this is very frustrating. And at one point he responded back and you said, hey, no excuses. I blew it. I just didn't respond to you. And I I literally wrote him back and said, that's awesome. Thank you. Yeah. I have nothing to say to that. And I really felt. Thank you, everyone. One of my kids. Says when they come in and then they say, man, I blew it, sorry I did this or whatever, it's I'm leaning. Hey, no, I appreciate it. We're human. Thanks for thanks for taking ownership of that.

[00:42:41] So it is a game changer. And so what I do is this is just one piece of living a next level life and being a conscious creator so that you can really be on fire in your relationship and in your business and in your personal life, your connection with your creator and your health and fitness like the four main areas of life. When you are being intentional, you have a set of values, you have a personal mission statement, you're taking accountability for things. You're being a conscious creator. You're moving through life intentionally rather than drifting, and you're designing things. That is that is the secret to leveling up. And so. It's been it's been so fun, man, I began this coaching business like three and a half years ago, and to be able to work with, like at a high level is you see people you change people's lives all the time. You change, you change mine man. Like, I think that working with a therapist is really, really important. I work with a therapist. His name is Tony Overbay. And and then also working with a coach like a therapist is going to be able to assist you with what has gotten you to this point, like understanding the a lot of the origins of things. And then a coach helps you say, OK, now what do we do moving forward? Like a very specific set of actions and like a framework and a path to be able to have that structure. But bum, bum, bum, bum, now I know where I'm going, what I'm doing, and there's an energy and a purpose to how I'm approaching life in general. And that's just that's the one two punch man

[00:44:20] Is I'm smiling, laughing because it's like you do this. You literally coached me through this and it's game changer. And then the module's you did unipolarity, game changer. And I'm smiling because I get silver sometimes when we were talking about other things to do to say, right. So what I do next year and I'm like, yeah, I know, right. Yeah. What do you do. You're like, no, like literally what do I do next. I'm like, I don't know man. So but here's here's some more real cool things I can say. Like that motivates you. Right.

[00:44:46] You're talking about when we're going together. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like I want you to tell me. OK, cool, cool story. I like that you you just blew my mind with what you said and I don't know what to do with it. It's like you handed me this amazing shiny new tool and then I'm like, but I don't know how to build anything with it. Yeah. I don't know what to do with it. And so that's where I come in with with other aspects of life. I'm not an expert in the things that you are an expert and it's so cool. That's what I do. Other things.

[00:45:17] Absolutely. So that's why I really I couldn't wait to get you on and to the timing's good because we're going to we're going to open back up the the magnetic marriage course. And and we've done two rounds. And honestly, it's been phenomenal. It's everything I had hoped that would be. And in more it's cliche, but it really is. But this accountability piece did more for me personally than I ever anticipated. And I might have said this at the beginning. I don't think I gave it the energy that I wanted to. But yeah, I kind of joked about it. But when you were saying, OK, I think this would be really important to have and I really thought, oh, it'll be nice. Presence helped me so much. Put the four pillars together and they connected conversation scripts and so this accountability thing in there. But boy, it is just when you can implement this accountability piece into your life. Yeah, I feel like you. It is one of those things, as we call it, a paradoxical intervention. It's the thing that is you think will be the hardest thing to do actually is easier than you think. And then it becomes this thing that just infects every part of your life. And so it's just amazing

[00:46:15] Because when you operate at the level of conscious creator, when you operate at the level of emotional maturity and taking control, then you're then you are you're in control and you're designing and you're deciding where to go. And if people don't know exactly you think they know that they want to know where to go, I help people figure out where they want to go. Yeah. And I trying that out of them and that's getting them out of the loop.

[00:46:39] So I would I hope it is OK. I would love to put your info in show notes and that sort of thing and people can reach a hundred percent.

[00:46:46] Let's do that. I actually just opened up a couple of spots for one on one because like in a group situation with like within magnetic marriages, everybody should take the magnetic marriage cause it's so good. But in the sometimes you deserve a little bit more custom coaching. So if you're ready for that, if that's something that you feel like you're ready for, then definitely just. Yeah, like I said, I've opened up a couple more spots. And so I want to be able to assist. If somebody is of an audience member of Tony Overbay, then they're my people, man.

[00:47:14] They are. No, I agree.

[00:47:16] I listen to your show. I love your show. That's how I got to meet up with you in the first place. So, yeah, if you're thinking about that and here's the cool thing. If you're thinking about it, you know, right now, you know, if you're drawn to this, if it's for you or not, because it's not for everybody is it's not. But if you're ready to really step it up and get into that level of commitment and really figure out where you're going and what you're doing with a set of tools that's going to help you get there, then work with work with me to the next level of life coaching. I mean, so this is what you do go to Preston Buckmeier.com or this is the best way to the best way to message me is on Facebook or Instagram. So it's Preston.PugMeyer or just Preston Buckmeier on on Facebook or Instagram. Just DM me and I respond, although

[00:48:04] I cannot wait to hear of then down the road somebody's coming on and they're going to talk about their conscious creators story and

[00:48:11] Beautiful man.

[00:48:12] Yeah, it'll be nice. It will. A you know, it is always a pleasure. We talk every week and I can't get enough of it, so I had to bring him in.

[00:48:18] Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

[00:48:19] So and so. People to come take the magnetic marriage course and you're going to get the person I do in some group coaching and it really will it will improve your marriage. That's that's not good enough. It will take your marriage to the next level and it will really teach you a framework, a way to communicate, and it just puts that to that passion back in the marriage. And now we've got a nice track record of showing how effective that can be. So we would love to have you on board with that as well. So, Preston, if I could be so bold, I really do feel, even though you were just taking me through this when we were creating the course, I want to give my own stamp of approval of somebody working with you one on one, because whether you know it or not is we've created this course. You have coached me and you have worked with me one on one. And it really has brought a tremendous amount of new skills that I brought into my therapy office, which has been phenomenal, but even more so in my life, the accountability piece that I pass along to my kids as well, and also just me being able to take ownership of a lot of it, even just the simplest things that I realized that I would just blow off as well. This isn't as important to to necessarily own. And so I really appreciate the work that you've done in helping me with that. If anybody is even remotely thinking about this or any of this resonated, then please reach out to Preston, because I cannot recommend him enough to help you really take ownership and accountability of your life. It's going to take your life to a whole different place. And I'm telling you, you only have one life to live, so just get going on it, find that purpose and and then just start taking action on it. And this is a huge piece of commitment press to do right now.

[00:49:49] Under to. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks so much, Mark. Thanks for asking. I really appreciate it. Thank you. Later.

Want to help your kids succeed? Let them see you struggle, let them see you fail, let them know you are human! Tony talks about a fascinating study out of MIT that shows how modeling the reality of not immediately succeeding at something can have a positive impact on kids as young as 15 months old. The article Tony references "Want to raise successful kids, MIT scientists say let them watch you do this..." by Bill Murphy Jr. (https://www.inc.com/bill-murphy-jr/want-to-raise-successful-kids-mit-scientists-say-let-them-watch-you-do-this-but-most-parents-are-afraid-to.html) also breaks down the challenges of kids growing up with a "fixed" mindset vs a "growth" mindset.

This episode of The Virtual Couch is sponsored by http://betterhelp.com/virtualcouch With the continuing “sheltering” rules that are spreading across the country PLEASE do not think that you can’t continue or begin therapy now. http://betterhelp.com/virtualcouch can put you quickly in touch with licensed mental health professionals who can meet through text, email, or videoconference often as soon as 24-48 hours. And if you use the link http://betterhelp.com/virtualcouch you will receive 10% off your first month of services. Please make your own mental health a priority, http://betterhelp.com/virtualcouch offers affordable counseling, and they even have sliding scale options if your budget is tight.

Tony's FREE parenting course, “Tips For Parenting Positively Even In the Not So Positive Times” is available NOW. Just go to https://www.tonyoverbay.com/courses-2/ and sign up today. This course will help you understand why it can be so difficult to communicate with and understand your children. You’ll learn how to keep your buttons hidden, how to genuinely give praise that will truly build inner wealth in your child, teen, or even in your adult children, and you’ll learn how to move from being “the punisher” to being someone your children will want to go to when they need help.

Tony's new best-selling book "He's a Porn Addict...Now What? An Expert and a Former Addict Answer Your Questions" is now available on Kindle. https://amzn.to/38mauBo

Tony Overbay, is the co-author of "He's a Porn Addict...Now What? An Expert and a Former Addict Answer Your Questions" now available on Amazon https://amzn.to/33fk0U4. The book debuted in the number 1 spot in the Sexual Health Recovery category and remains there as the time of this record. The book has received numerous positive reviews from professionals in the mental health and recovery fields.

You can learn more about Tony's pornography recovery program The Path Back by visiting http://pathbackrecovery.com And visit http://tonyoverbay.com and sign up to receive updates on upcoming programs, and podcasts.

Tony mentioned a product that he used to take out all of the "uh's" and "um's" that, in his words, "must be created by wizards and magic!" because it's that good! To learn more about Descript click here https://descript.com?lmref=v95myQ

---------- TRANSCRIPT ---------

[00:00:00] I completed my first marathon, it was the California International Marathon in 1996, and my goal at that time was to finish under four hours and I made it barely finishing in three hours and 57 minutes. And it was amazing. And I have fond memories of that race. I passed a very sad juggling clown and around the 20 mile mark and realizing that it took me 20 miles to catch a juggling clown who was running the event. And I remember finishing and having a difficult time literally walking up onto the curb shortly after the race. And I felt the most incredible, just amazing soreness and pain over the next few days. And I celebrated that pain and that soreness and that led to about, I don't know, maybe 40, 50 more marathons, including the famed Boston Marathon in 2006. And from there, I did a few dozen, 50 KS 32 miles and then some 50 miles and then 100 case of 62 miles and then 100 mile races with the few 24 hour runs mixed in there as well. Where I also realized that marathon pain was cute in hindsight, 100 mile pain, that was amazing. A walk down the stairs had to be done backwards for a few days because you you couldn't engage your quads at all as well as to just try to get in the vicinity of the toilet, maybe a little bit too much information and then just fall down backwards onto it.

[00:01:14] Hope you stick the landing. But I digress. In those 24 hour runs, I covered anywhere from 111 to 125 miles. But the point being that I really don't talk about my first marathon entry. That was back in 1995. And so let me start with the excuse machine. We're talking about pre Internet or at least pretty easily searchable Internet. And I had no real training plan. I think I purchased a very large book that I never read. So I was thinking the training and better yet, absolutely winging the nutritional side of things, because about three days before the big event, this first marathon in 1995, I decided that I wanted to feel lean, I wanted to feel light, I wanted to feel ready. So I stopped eating. I decided not to consume a whole lot of calories so I would be ready for race day. So I feel light on my feet. And then the night before, we checked into a hotel that was near the start and I didn't sleep well and the run itself was absolutely brutal. We had no kids, but we had a golden retriever. His name was Dexter and my wife was set to meet me along the race course with Dexter. I'm sure you had the the bandana tied around his neck is all golden retrievers did, especially back in the late 90s.

[00:02:19] And I think I saw my wife Wendy at maybe the final five mile mark when I was still feeling OK and then maybe at the ten mile mark and then at 13, that was supposed to be the halfway mark. And I'd done several half marathons at that point. So I'm sure as I crested some hill that Wendy saw me, Dexter starts wagging his tail. But I was done. My legs had absolutely seized. I think about the The Wizard of Oz and the Tin Man. And there she was with Dexter and she started to say, hey, I'll see you a bit later. And I said, I'm done. I'm literally finished. And I don't remember much more. But the truth was I was absolutely starving and my legs were now locked at the kneecaps. So I did a Tin Man waddle over to a Taco Bell. I remember that was at that particular point in the race course. And I got in line and I stood there with my race bib on and I ordered a breakfast burrito and I remember inhaling it. And then I immediately walked outside and threw it back up. So there there was my first glorious marathon experience so I could have easily buried that one because I learned a lot from that experience. And but I didn't have to necessarily tell anybody that. And I'm I'm telling you now, and by nineteen ninety six then I had stuck to a training plan because of what had happened in 1995.

[00:03:35] I well I carb loaded the night before I slept better, I had trained more and I had an amazing experience, complete with the aforementioned passing of the juggling clown and finishing under four hours. But what I have so thoroughly enjoyed is I've been able to speak to countless numbers of people about a variety of topics, is being able to talk about failures or setbacks because we absolutely all have them. But why are we so fearful about talking about them, especially when it comes to people in our family, especially our kids? Are we worried that they might secretly find out that we're human or they find out that because I didn't complete this marathon in 1995, that they don't have to believe anything that I say. So today we're going to explore what a recent MIT study concluded, that if we want to raise successful kids, we need to let them see us do something. And something tells me, you know, where I'm heading with this. We will talk about what kids need to see from us to set them up for the greatest chance for success, as well as why it can be so difficult to show this side of us. So we're going to cover this and so much more coming up on today's episode of The Virtual Couch.

[00:04:55] Come on in, take a seat.

[00:05:02] Hey, everybody, welcome to Episode 273, The Virtual Couch. I am your host, Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, certified my barbacoa, try to speak Gruzman father for four, ultramarathon runner and creator of the Path Back, which is a pornography recovery program that is changing lives. Go to Pathbackrecovery.com and download a short ebook that talks about mistakes that people make or myths that they fall prey to when trying to put pornography in the rearview mirror. When turning to that as a coping mechanism and weekly group calls, those have been amazing. These zom calls were forming this community of people that are there to be supportive. It's a shame free zone like nobody's business. Anyway, go to Pathbackrecovery.com. And I also realized my voice is a little bit rocky. We just got back from a vacation, which I'm going to talk about in a future episode of the virtual couch. In essence, things I learned from Disneyland. And it's not going to be just some sort of click bait or cliched thing because, boy, I had my therapy brain in full motion and it was just a blast. I jotted down a whole bunch of notes of things that I picked up there and but I screamed, oh, my goodness, I scream a lot when I am on a roller coaster. Any kind of ride, I am that guy. I am living my best life and I can't lie. I honestly thought of the Marianne Williamson poem are our deepest because there's some there's a line there and I'm not good at memorizing poems, that sort of thing.

[00:06:16] But it goes something about you're playing small does not serve the world that there's there's nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you. And I think toward the end of the poem, she's something that says something about is we let our own light shine. We unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. And that is we're liberated from our own fear that our presence automatically liberates others. I guess I'm giving a sneak preview of some of the things I'm going to talk about on a future episode about going to Disneyland and having the old therapy brain on high alert. But I really do find that when we went all in, when we had an amazing time on a ride, that the people around us did, too, whether it was there's a water ride in Disney's California adventure. And we immediately started chatting up the people that are in the ride with us. I think it holds eight people. There were a couple of teenage girls than a couple and maybe their 20s, and there were four of us. So when we started talking about how excited we are, how we don't want to get wet and we're asking them if they've been on the ride before. And boy, you could just see people open up to the point where then we had eight people in that thing screaming their heads off as we were getting drenched.

[00:07:16] And it was just it was a blast. What a shared experience. But so I really did think about that. But at the consequence of my voice, which is fine, that'll heal. It'll come back, but those memories will last forever. So I was reading about a particular article that someone had sent me a while ago, and I meant to cover this when I first saw it, but I think I just put it off for a later day. But this is a study from MIT and the study says, if you want to raise successful kids at MIT, scientists say to let them watch you do this one thing. But most parents are afraid to do it, the subheading says. Science says that children as young as 15 months old can learn to become more resilient, but only if you're willing to show them this. So drum roll. What is this? And this article is by Bill Murphy Jr. And what you need to show them is that you're human. You need to show them that you fail to show them that you have this tenacity or this grit, and you show them that you can continue and try again and learn from mistakes. And so in this article by Bill Murray, and it's a Bill Murphy, Bill Murray, the actor Bill Murphy, Bill Murphy says, imagine you're a parent and you want the best for your children.

[00:08:23] And you're convinced that based on science, that they need to learn this concept of grit and tenacity. So you work hard and you praise your kids the right way, always for their efforts, never for their innate characteristics and abilities, which I love that big part of the nurtured heart approach. You don't just say good job, champ. You're telling me and I really appreciate how hard you're working on that project that really shows me that you have this tenacity or I love the way that you are playing with your brother because that shows me that you are going to be such a good example to him. And so that if you we try to show them that the hard work will always pay off and maybe it makes yourself feel better in front of them, because we typically try to hide our struggles and we highlight our successes. And we we don't often show those low points that we have. We try to protect that side of ourselves from our kids, even from our spouse, from those around us. But researchers at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology say, hang on just a minute. It turns out there is a potentially big advantage in showing your kids just how hard you may have struggled to reach any goal. And according to this new research, children even as young as 15 months old may benefit from it, which is such a cool part of the study.

[00:09:28] So here's what that MIT study looked like and how this all fit into this larger body of research about teaching children to be resilient achievers. So the researchers at MIT, they had a series of experiments with very young children where they try to determine whether demonstrating this adult resilience would have an impact on how hard the children would work at an age appropriate task. So the experiment involved a couple of stages. Children averaging around fifteen months old would start by watching adults as the adults tried to solve simple tasks like opening a container or. Taking keys from a carabiners and so sometimes and what the researchers called the effort condition the adults would demonstrate, struggling to accomplish the task before ultimately prevailing somewhere around the 30 second marks, they were still keeping in mind a child's attention span, which along this episode. I want to just make some comments. Boy, that 30 second mark, we're talking about attention span. I still I don't think I can say this enough. If you have been talking with a teenager or younger even or man, sometimes just the adults around us. And you have been going on in lecture mode for over about 45 seconds. And you watch the person that you're lecturing, you watch their eyes glaze over. You watch them sit back and just settle in because they feel like this is going to be a long lecture.

[00:10:44] Then know that the brain starts to get a little bit into this fight or flight mode, that if somebody is being criticized that their heart rate will start to elevate and their cortisol, the stress hormone will start to elevate in their body, which will shut off the prefrontal cortex, which is the thinking logical part of the brain. And the fight flight or freeze response starts to kick in. We often forget about that freeze. We talk about fight or flight often. And so, so often when somebody is being lectured and they just sit there and tune out, they their brain is going into a protective state. They're in that freeze mode. And so it's not like they're taking in and absorbing all the information you're sharing with them. So I always think that's fascinating to try to make a point. If you feel like you have a point to make and do so in less than a minute is ideal. But back to the study. So the adults that were in this effort condition they would demonstrate struggling to accomplish a task before winning, solving the whatever the equation was at the 30 second mark. Then there were other times and what the researchers called the no effort condition where the adults demonstrated solving the task quickly. And there was also a baseline condition which skipped this first part of the experiment, whether there was the air condition or the no effort condition.

[00:11:53] So again, the effort condition showed the adult struggling for about 30 seconds, then ultimately prevailing. And then the no effort condition was where the adult just simply completed the task so they would open the container or they would take the keys off the carabiner immediately. So then the researchers gave the children a toy. They could play music if the children could find this hidden on off switch. And researchers studied how long the toddlers would look for the switch or else try to turn on this decoy button before either giving the toy to an adult for help or simply just throwing it on the floor. And I think you can probably see where we're going. Of the sixty children in the experiment, the ones who had watched an adult demonstrate resilience were consistently willing to try longer to get the toy to work. So that is fascinating, right, that the kids are watching us and we are modeling this behavior that if we want to show them today, I easily remove the kids from the carabiner, then are we wanting them to go, oh, my gosh, my dad is the world's greatest QI remover from carabiners in the world. I'll never be able to remove keys off of a carabiner like my dad or I mean, what do we win for that? We get a trophy.

[00:12:59] Do you a cookie? Do we get some praise or are we showing resilience and showing that, OK, the struggle is real and that but we keep at it and that our kids will then eventually learn that you need to keep something in order to accomplish the task. So they start talking about this power of mindset. So this is this is one study. And as Bill Murphy talks about, that's interesting, but it's involving toddlers and they're under some unusual circumstances. But it's all a piece of this large body of research read by led by Stanford researcher Carol Dweck. And I know I've talked about her in some previous episodes as well, because Dweck's research says that people can hold two types of beliefs about human achievement and development. Some hold on to what is known as a fixed mindset, would suggest that our skills or our aptitudes are almost entirely innate, that they are already there within us and others embrace this concept of a growth mindset where then, on the other hand, that our ability to achieve is more malleable and that you can continue to grow and change and adapt. And so in Dweck's research, in her research, the findings show that adopting this growth mindset ultimately leads to kids learning more or achieving more, being happier, being more successful than those who were taught to embrace the fixed mindset. And I'm going to go off here for a little bit on just some of my own ramblings.

[00:14:21] But I feel like there's so many things that I've learned over the years of counseling that, yes, I feel like the fixed mindset is something that most of us were taught. I'm 51 years old. I don't know where that cutoff hits, but it really was a you find your job, your lane. You do it for 30 years, 35 years. You retire, you get your pension, you work to live. So you do your job so that you can have free time at nights or the weekends or that sort of thing. And I was in that trap, so to speak, for ten years. I did computer software and I realized it was the old I didn't know what I didn't know, meaning that I was doing the same thing. I would look at the clock and when it hit five, I couldn't. Wait to go, and I tried my best to do as well as I could in my job, but it wasn't something that I was passionate about. And I feel like I really did have this fixed mindset that, OK, I have my degree, I have my job. Now, here's what I do. Instead of this growth mindset of trying to find what I truly love or I'm passionate about. And I think there's a lot of maybe pop psychology myths or cliches that have cropped up almost as a way for us to maybe make ourselves feel better at times if we're in this fix mindset or in a job or something that we just really don't like.

[00:15:35] Now, if you are absolutely stuck in a career, you've got the golden handcuffs or whatever that looks like a giant mortgage, those sort of things. I'm honestly I hear you and I work with people like that on a daily basis. So when I say, hey, I change careers at thirty two, I went back to school and got my master's degree at blah blah blah. I'm not saying that that's all you have to do because I know that everybody's situation or circumstance is different. But the the cliche or pop psychology thing that I often hear is that people say, well, I don't want to do what I love because then it will go from being something I love to a job. And there's a big and I've only been trying to put words to this than the last few months, but part of me feels like is that these story, our brain is fuzing two are telling us so that we stay in the path of least resistance or the comfort of the job or the life that we currently know because of that fear of the unknown and simply meaning that I'm working with clients for years and I'm embracing that same kind of fixed mindset of saying, no, I hear you.

[00:16:34] You're in that job. I mean, yeah, you don't want to you don't want to become an artist or you don't want to become a writer, because then all of a sudden then that would become your job. And I'm sitting here thinking maybe I'm living this thing. I love my job. And so I actually do enjoy working. And even though I get to I deal with a lot of really heavy things and topics and people's things that they bring into a session, I love my job. So, no, it isn't something that I've always fascinated by the way that people work, the way the brain works. I've been drawn to reading biographies even as a kid. And it was fascinating to me or always been to make people watch or always even when I go to these computer trade shows, I wanted to talk to people and find out why they got into the field that they did or what they like about it or that sort of thing. And that would have to remember, oh, my gosh, wait. I'm supposed to be negotiating a software deal in my bed. But so I feel like when you truly do find your passion, your love, that it does become something that you feel passionate about. And then you want to put in that additional effort or work and learning more about whatever it is that you are passionate about. So sometimes I feel like this fixed mindset that I know my generation was definitely handed because our parents I mean, that was what they had to do.

[00:17:42] They had to buckle down. They had to find the job. They worked. They got their pension. They worked until they could retire. And so I feel like the maybe there's so many opportunities now. We're inundated with so many choices. And I know that can be bad in some situations, but I feel like it's pretty good, too. And so I feel like often you combine this fixed mindset that somebody has of, OK, here's the thing you do, even if you don't really like it, this is what you do. So learn to like it or learn to just settle in for the rest of your life and you'll be happy after you retire. Man, that is some experiential avoidance that is just setting the stage for kicking the can down the road. If I really don't like what I do, then on a day to day basis, I'm probably finding a lot of other distractions and telling myself, well, I'll get to the things that I'm supposed to do this afternoon or tomorrow. But when you truly do have this growth mindset or looking for the things that truly drive you or I say this all the time, trying to find your values, things that matter to you, not things that you are supposed to think that you're supposed to like or that your spouse thinks that you're supposed to like or your family or your community or your church.

[00:18:43] But you find out what really matters to you, because those are unique things based on your experiences. But anyway, I digress. That's not the point of this podcast. But back to this research. This MIT experiment is about optimistic hope that could hopefully enable future generations to work from this growth mindset from a very young age. And Laura Schulz, who's a professor of cognitive science at MIT, said there's some pressure on parents to make everything look easy and not get frustrated in front of their children. So go back to what I just went on a tangent here about. If the parent doesn't even like the thing that they're trying to show their kid that you're not supposed to struggle doing, then we've got multiple layers of just this frustration of this set up for it's so funny. I can't even say failure. I wanted to say lack of success. So if I'm trying to make my kid think that I know exactly what I'm doing and it's something I don't even really care to do, then I'm probably going to struggle in doing it. I'm going to want to not take ownership of the fact that I've struggled because I worry that I'm teaching my kid that, oh, my gosh, they're going to think dad's a failure and they're going to lose all respect for dad and they'll never listen to him again, which is absolute nonsense.

[00:19:46] It's actually we're finding out that the data shows it's quite the opposite. So, again, it's pressure on parents to make everything look easy and not get frustrated in front of their children. But she said there's nothing you can learn from a laboratory study that directly applies to parenting. But this does at least suggest. It may not be a bad thing to show your children that you are working hard to achieve your goals, I think meaning the fact that it is OK to show your kids that you struggle or that you fail, or I think it's OK to show your kids that instead of thinking you are at point A in your life and you already have to know Z, that it is so powerful to say I'm A let's see where B takes me and from B, let's see where what C looks like. And I say this often. I'm so grateful for the way that things laid out. When I got out of the computer industry, it was steps I was honest in a software company that when the big .com boom crashed, then I didn't know what else to do. I started a computer hardware company with a friend of mine, mentor Tom Yoshida Yoshida son. And we created this company. We made Forensic Disk Duplicators, and I tried my best to really embrace and love forensic disc duplicators, but I did not enjoy them.

[00:20:54] I didn't love them. And so meanwhile, I'm finding myself even doubling down on, I don't know, for the time it was trying to find my values or turn into coping mechanisms of reading more biographies or really trying to learn more about people and learn more about you in the sales process of getting to understand people so that I could hopefully maybe find reasons why they would want to do this duplicator. But what I continually found was I was finding more reasons why that I felt like a fraud if I was trying to sell them a disc duplicator, because I don't even necessarily believe in the forensic disc duplicator to begin with. So I left that computer industry and I started talking with people. I almost became a financial planner. I almost became a construction consultant. Arbitration something. I almost became a pharmaceutical sales rep. I mean, it was all of these things that I just felt like I just have to start taking action to then see what comes next. And so all along that journey, I'm finding myself being drawn to wanting to study the mind and wanting to study behavior. So I go back and get my master's in counseling. But there was a moment and it's funny, I think I might've mentioned this a few weeks ago, and I'm looking at my desk here because I have the letter here somewhere I found at my garage, but I made it through two or three levels of interviews with Apple.

[00:22:01] And and I really thought I was going to get this job with this educational company that they had acquired. And it was in my area and I thought, OK, I might not even finished grad school in counseling because this is my path. But I'm so grateful that I stumbled upon this growth mindset that I got out of this fixed mindset, because that allowed me to explore, to fail. I remember sharing with my kids at the time as they were getting older, that I hadn't necessarily done as great in my undergraduate career in school. But in finding out more about what I really cared about, grad school was easy because I really loved the subject matter that I was dealing with. But anyway, so what have we learned today that this power of mindset is what she calls it in this article, is that when you have this fixed mindset that you have to find your lane and stick to it forever and ever. Amen that there. And sure, there are some people that have known from the time they were young that they wanted to be a doctor, for example. But there are also people that have thought, OK, well, I have to have this fixed mindset that I will be a doctor and then I will enjoy it.

[00:23:03] But and I've talked to a lot of doctors that they're pretty, pretty far into their career and they realize, hey, maybe this wasn't what I exactly I wanted to do, but I feel like I'm stuck. Or I think when I when I even find myself asking people, teenagers if I ever work with them, hey, so what you want to do when you grow up and oftentimes if they say company, I want to be an attorney or I want to own a small business, then I think, OK, this guy's got it together. But then if I hear somebody say, I don't know and I think back to that might be the right answer, because sometimes I feel like if it's this is what I want to be, are they moving forward with this fixed mindset? This is what I'm supposed to do. I'm supposed to know, when I'm in high school, what I want to do so I can take the AP classes so I can get through college early so I can start my career soon. And I really feel like maybe it's a little bit more about this journey or this growth mindset and it's more about that. I don't know. I mean, I changed majors three times in college. I start I went ten years in a career that then I ended up doing a complete 180. And and I feel like that was maybe now in hindsight, I feel grateful for having stumbled upon this growth mindset.

[00:24:05] And I was talking with a client just a few days ago, and they were there in college and they were saying, I need to figure things out now. And they were talking about how they have a lot of different interests and a lot of different passions. And they were framing it as this man. What's wrong with me? I should know by now. And I say, look, it says who again? Don't should on yourself. Nobody likes nobody likes to be shot on. Instead, we need to reframe that to, hey, check it out. There's a lot of things I like to do. And I shared with this person a bit of my story of where I feel like now that I can do therapy and write and podcast and speak and and all of those things that I feel like, OK, that I found my lane because there is a lot of growth opportunity in these various things that I do. But it took me a long time to not find myself wanting or thinking I'm supposed to go back to that fixed mindset of man. I just have to find the thing and buckle down and get to the end of the ride. So that then I can live, I would rather start living now and that's what I'm really finding and I have to tell you more.

[00:25:08] And now going on a little bit of a tangent here, a bit of a rant, but I feel like the I never I never thought of or had any intentions on being what would be deemed as a workaholic of sorts. But I found that the more passionate I get, the more that I enjoy working, the more I enjoy the study of psychology, the way that people interact and communicate, and the more I find myself in my even in my off time bringing this information into conversations, wanting to know more about people's experience, their relationships, their childhood. And I feel like I could see how this could start to creep into something that may look like someone is a workaholic. But I also feel like it raises my baseline up so much that I feel like I'm more present when I am with others so that it might be more of this, work hard, play hard, kind of a mentality where, you know, again, raising your emotional baseline, I feel like is that's something that I've talked about for so long. And I air quotes invented this emotional baseline theory over a decade ago. But I feel like emotional baseline. It's about self care. Self care is not selfish. We often feel like if we are putting our own needs or wants or desires first, that that is we are full of our own ego or that we again are being selfish.

[00:26:21] But I believe that when you have this growth mindset, you find the values and the things that matter to you. You turn toward those things that you will start to raise your emotional baseline. You'll start to be around people that are perhaps a little bit more like minded, people that share shared experiences, common interest, so that then you may feel a little bit more of a connection. And then as you do that, your baseline raises even more so that you are more present in the things that you do. Because I feel like when people truly are living the life that they would like to be living, that that is what leads to, again, if they're following these socially compliant goals, if they're doing things that they think they're supposed to, even the job that they think they're supposed to, because if not, they will let themselves down or let somebody else down, then those socially compliant goals, when that is what your life is full of, it leads to this concept of experiential avoidance that the more I feel like I'm not connected or care about the things I do, the more I maybe feel like I don't have a sense of purpose or a passion. Then the more that I am going to struggle with those day to day things of the things that I'm supposed to be doing. And then that's when it is so easy to find distraction.

[00:27:27] There are so many distractions, the Internet, our phones, communicating with someone at the cube next to you and to the point where then it's you don't necessarily get the things done that you feel like you need to or you're supposed to. And then you put that off to another day. And that can lead to feeling like what's wrong with me. And so story, I think, is that whether we learn today, about an hour ago. But so what do we learn today? I would love for you to take a look at or embrace this growth mindset. Are you currently do you have a fixed mindset? And more importantly, what this article is talking about today is that if that is what you are projecting to your kids, that you are telling them that they need to have this fixed mindset, they need to know what they are going to do right now, that maybe we can dial that back a little bit. And what the study showed, as well as literally in that example, it's OK to be human, it's OK to fail, it's OK to not know what you're doing. And it's especially OK to say I'm not sure what I'm doing because I feel like that, especially with kids or teenagers or even your spouse, that that is an opportunity for connection and that's an opportunity for growth. If you are that vulnerable and saying, I'm not really sure how to do this, but I would love to do this together, or why don't we jump on YouTube and find out a way to make this happen, that that is going to drive growth and connection, number one, that vulnerability.

[00:28:39] No to a shared experience. So instead of trying to show them, look at this, I did this thing really easily and you didn't even see that. I put a lot of effort into it behind the scenes so that you would think that I was a master at this, because what do you what do you get for that? You had a trophy again, cookie, a pat on the back, or does that person that's watching you do that feel like, oh, jeez, I got to just be good at things immediately or something's wrong with me? The struggle of vulnerability is the way to connection. And so I hope that you have taken something from this podcast today that you can take with with you throughout the day to show that vulnerability, to really take a look and see are you in a fixed mindset or a growth mindset? And then if so, maybe it's time to take a little bit of a step back and look at how you can at least find some things in your life that you can start to embrace more of a growth mindset on. So I could go another round of saying these things, but I will leave you here. We'll we'll go out with the wonderful the talented Aurora Florence with her song.

[00:29:35] It's wonderful to see you next time you have.

Tony discusses the 4 Steps of Differentiation from the article "Psychological Differentiation" from https://www.psychalive.org/psychological-differentiation/ The 4 Steps are based on the work of Dr. Robert Firestone from his book "The Self-Under Siege: A Therapeutic Model for Differentiation," Visit http://tonyoverbay.com to sign up for Tony's newsletter and to find out more about his programs for couples communication, parenting, pornography recovery and more. You can find Russ Harris' values worksheet here https://psychwire.com/harris/resources

This episode of The Virtual Couch is sponsored by http://betterhelp.com/virtualcouch With the continuing “sheltering” rules that are spreading across the country PLEASE do not think that you can’t continue or begin therapy now. http://betterhelp.com/virtualcouch can put you quickly in touch with licensed mental health professionals who can meet through text, email, or videoconference often as soon as 24-48 hours. And if you use the link http://betterhelp.com/virtualcouch you will receive 10% off your first month of services. Please make your own mental health a priority, http://betterhelp.com/virtualcouch offers affordable counseling, and they even have sliding scale options if your budget is tight.

Tony's FREE parenting course, “Tips For Parenting Positively Even In the Not So Positive Times” is available NOW. Just go to https://www.tonyoverbay.com/courses-2/ and sign up today. This course will help you understand why it can be so difficult to communicate with and understand your children. You’ll learn how to keep your buttons hidden, how to genuinely give praise that will truly build inner wealth in your child, teen, or even in your adult children, and you’ll learn how to move from being “the punisher” to being someone your children will want to go to when they need help.

Tony's new best-selling book "He's a Porn Addict...Now What? An Expert and a Former Addict Answer Your Questions" is now available on Kindle. https://amzn.to/38mauBo

Tony Overbay, is the co-author of "He's a Porn Addict...Now What? An Expert and a Former Addict Answer Your Questions" now available on Amazon https://amzn.to/33fk0U4. The book debuted in the number 1 spot in the Sexual Health Recovery category and remains there as the time of this record. The book has received numerous positive reviews from professionals in the mental health and recovery fields.

You can learn more about Tony's pornography recovery program The Path Back by visiting http://pathbackrecovery.com And visit http://tonyoverbay.com and sign up to receive updates on upcoming programs, and podcasts.

Tony mentioned a product that he used to take out all of the "uh's" and "um's" that, in his words, "must be created by wizards and magic!" because it's that good! To learn more about Descript click here https://descript.com?lmref=v95myQ

#differentiation #life #therapy #virtualcouch #tonyoverbay #tonyoverbayquote #quote #podcast #podcasting #acceptancecommitmenttherapy #motivation #coach #addictionrecovery #narcissism #happiness #behappy #mentalhealth #wellness #recovery #selfcare #anxiety #relax #mindfulness #happy #depression #mentalhealthawareness #mentalhealthmatters #psychology #MadeWithDescript #DescriptPro

Tony begins a series of bonus episodes by airing some of the most downloaded/listened to episodes over the past 4 years of hosting The Virtual Couch podcast. In today's episode, Jody Moore (http://jodymoore.com), Life Coach and host of the Better Than Happy podcast, takes you through her origin story.

The Magnetic Marriage Course is a hit! You can sign up now to get in the queue for round 2 by heading to http://tonyoverbay.com/magentic. The course is scheduled to open for sign-ups in the third week of April.Please subscribe to The Virtual Couch YouTube channel at https://www.youtube.com/c/TheVirtualCouchPodcast/ and follow The Virtual Couch on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/virtualcouch/

This episode of The Virtual Couch is sponsored by http://betterhelp.com/virtualcouch With the continuing “sheltering” rules that are spreading across the country PLEASE do not think that you can’t continue or begin therapy now. http://betterhelp.com/virtualcouch can put you quickly in touch with licensed mental health professionals who can meet through text, email, or videoconference often as soon as 24-48 hours. And if you use the link http://betterhelp.com/virtualcouch you will receive 10% off your first month of services. Please make your own mental health a priority, http://betterhelp.com/virtualcouch offers affordable counseling, and they even have sliding scale options if your budget is tight.

Tony's FREE parenting course, “Tips For Parenting Positively Even In the Not So Positive Times” is available NOW. Just go to https://www.tonyoverbay.com/courses-2/ and sign up today. This course will help you understand why it can be so difficult to communicate with and understand your children. You’ll learn how to keep your buttons hidden, how to genuinely give praise that will truly build inner wealth in your child, teen, or even in your adult children, and you’ll learn how to move from being “the punisher” to being someone your children will want to go to when they need help.

Tony's new best-selling book "He's a Porn Addict...Now What? An Expert and a Former Addict Answer Your Questions" is now available on Kindle. https://amzn.to/38mauBo

Tony Overbay, is the co-author of "He's a Porn Addict...Now What? An Expert and a Former Addict Answer Your Questions" now available on Amazon https://amzn.to/33fk0U4. The book debuted in the number 1 spot in the Sexual Health Recovery category and remains there as the time of this record. The book has received numerous positive reviews from professionals in the mental health and recovery fields.

You can learn more about Tony's pornography recovery program The Path Back by visiting http://pathbackrecovery.com And visit http://tonyoverbay.com and sign up to receive updates on upcoming programs, and podcasts.

Tony mentioned a product that he used to take out all of the "uh's" and "um's" that, in his words, "must be created by wizards and magic!" because it's that good! To learn more about Descript click here https://descript.com?lmref=v95myQ

----- TRANSCRIPT -----

EP 256 Jody Moore Orgin Story-2021-April
[00:00:00] Hey, everybody, before we get to this bonus episode, one of my most downloaded episodes of all time with Jodi Moore, I just wanted to encourage you to head over to Tony Overbay. Dotcom slash magnetic round two of the magnetic marriage course is coming soon. And if you heard the podcast earlier in this week with Preston Buckmeier, we talked about a lot of the the success things we learned from the first round of the magnetic marriage course, and it was better than anticipated. So go there. Now, either listen to that episode earlier this week or go to Tony Overbay, dotcom slash magnetic and get in line. Find out what all the kids are talking about the next round of the magnetic marriage course. OK, let's get to today's bonus episode with Jodie Moore.

[00:00:46] Welcome to a

[00:00:47] Special bonus episode of The Virtual Couch. I'm your host, Tony Overbay, licensed marriage and family therapist and certified my Blaber coach and writer, speaker, husband, father for all those things that I'd like to say at the beginning of each episode and today and this bonus episode, I've been almost doing what I would call a series. This is a series of some of the most downloaded episodes in the history of the virtual couch. So some two hundred and fifty something plus episodes later and I don't know, three, four million downloads that looked at the stats in a while, which is a funny thing in and of itself in the beginning days of any podcast, I think any honest podcast or will tell you they become somewhat obsessed with their statistics and over time it it doesn't hold the allure that it once did. But I'm so grateful for anybody who takes the time to listen, download, share any of those things. The Virtual Couch podcast. But today's guest is one of those that is in the top 10 of most downloaded episodes in history, the virtual couch. And that's Jodi Moore. Jodi Moore is a life coach and I'm on her website right now, which is funny because when I had her on way back in the day, I think it was episode thirty four. She had a website and her she was kind of known as a bold new mom. And at that time she was moving over. So now you can just simply find her at Jodi Moore Dotcom.

[00:02:01] And she said she's a mother of four, a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints, and a woman trying to figure out how to minimize resentment, overwhelming guilt, and replace them with happiness, gratitude and joy. And one of the reasons that I loved having Jodi on my podcast so much back in the day is because I was like I say, thirty four episodes and she was the third or fourth episode. And I did a home in a way or a home and home series with her where I went on her podcast and she came on mine and I didn't know the impact that she was having in helping women become their their best selves, getting their confidence back. And once I had her on my podcast, it was just absolutely phenomenal. The response that I got and the amount of downloads just jumped by leaps and bounds. And from that point, I really feel like the virtual couch was off and it even gained. Got me access to more guests that even had more people that follow them, which brought more people to the virtual couch. So I'm really grateful for Jodie Moore and for her having me on her show and for her coming on my show. So what I think is fun about this episode is I am a huge fan of origin stories. And, you know, there's so many movies out there and the DC Marvel Universe, I'll be the first to admit, and I even have a podcast where I had a couple of people on that talked extensively about this, where I'm not exactly sure who's in the DC Universe, who's in the Marvel universe, but I do enjoy those movies.

[00:03:23] But the thing I enjoy the most is when I get an origin story, when I find out how somebody became the person that they are. Even before I became a therapist, I was fascinated by biographies, autobiographies, and I love nothing more than to watch documentaries about people I would watch. My audible account is filled with stories of people and what makes them tick all of those wonderful things. So I'd be like in looking back over this episode as I was getting ready to to release this one and listening and editing a few things, cleaning some things up, that this is more like Jodi's origin story, where she talks about making that change from working in corporate America to then stepping out on her own and helping coach people into what is become a thriving business, a thriving empire where she has helped hundreds, I'm sure thousands of people be a better version of themselves. So I love for you to sit back, relax, enjoy this bonus episode, the Origin story about Jodi Moore. And before I even click into the music here, the one that talks about come on in and take a seat on the virtual couch, which is a fun song.

[00:04:26] It was made just for the podcast. Let me do a quick bit of business and just suggest that if you are thinking about getting help and you want to go see a therapist, a counselor, and right now they're hard to get into, I will tell you it's hard for me to find people to even refer people to. Then I would recommend taking a look at the online therapy world. So take a look at Betterhelp.com virtual couch. You're going to get ten percent off your first month services. And you you owe it to yourself. You owe it to those you love, those who you have in your life. But but really to you to just take a look at some of the things that might be stumbling blocks that are in your life, things it might be getting you down if you're struggling with a bit of anxiety, depression, OCD, just in and in your thought process, your thought patterns, you can go take a look at Betterhelp.com, slash virtual couch and a very quick assessment. You could be up and running talking to a licensed professional counselor or licensed marriage and family therapist in your area within 24 to 48 hours. And you can do it via email or text or Zouma in person. Whatever the you're going to find a way to communicate with somebody in a way that works for you. So go try Betterhelp.com such virtual couch today, get ten percent off your first month's fees and then they do have they have scholarships and adjusted rates and sliding scales and that sort of thing to do.

[00:05:38] So with that said, let's get to this bonus episode where you're going to get to learn the origin story of Jodi Moore. Hey, so this is a bonus that. I thought I couldn't help myself when I was editing this episode, this bonus episode with Jodie Moore at the beginning of the episode, after I had welcomed everybody to the show. I gave a sneak preview to an upcoming episode with a woman named Katelyn Markham that used to work in my office. And Caitlin's been on the virtual couch twice, once to talk about disordered eating and wants to talk about dating in the modern age. And those are fantastic episodes. If you want to go take a look and find those, maybe I'll put those in the show notes. But she told a story at the end of one of the episodes that I still to this day makes me laugh. And I forgot that I included that in this story. More sneak preview. So this is just a clip at the end of one of those episodes with Katelyn Markham. And then we'll get to the episode with Jodie Moore. So enjoy this clip. It's one of the funniest things that I've heard on the Virtual Couch podcast before we end. Tell us about that cat scratch on your head.

[00:06:34] Oh, I. It's my fault, she said in her toxic relationship. I got a cat when I was nine and I was obsessed with Mariah Carey at the time. So I named her Mariah Kitty. Oh, and she is a diva and I don't know what I was thinking. Of course, she's going to be a diva. And so she scratched me the other day and even asking me if I have a cat, I'm like, yeah, why? I think I've got hair. And they're like, no, that gash on your hand.

[00:06:58] I had a gash on your hand. Yeah.

[00:07:01] Mariah Carey. Mariah Carey.

[00:07:03] That's impressive. I think that that is probably the way we in this podcast.

[00:07:07] I mean,

[00:07:08] Any other way. No. OK, I hope that did not disappoint. I cannot get Mariah Kitty in the fact that she was a diva out of my head. I hear that thing whenever I'm feeling down. I just play that clip from Caitlyn.

[00:07:37] Come on, take a seat. So. When I finally looked you up,

[00:07:45] You run a very tight fortress. I could not find direct contact information. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah. I mean, I changed that. No, no, it's not. No, I think I can understand because I wonder if you did just have a big glaring email address on your front page, how many hours you

[00:08:01] Get a day. I used to have that and I used to get a lot and I try to direct everyone to that. Ask Jody call, which is perfect.

[00:08:08] So I think when I found you and I did the horrible I stalked you very little leeway. And I found your Facebook information and it said that you were in Roseville, which is, you know, that's where I'm at right now. So I was like, holy cow, Jodi, come on in and we can do the podcast. But you're no longer in Roseville.

[00:08:25] I'm not there. I was there just a couple of years ago, though. Yeah. And then and then we moved to Rockland and now we're in Washington State. So I just haven't updated my Facebook profile. I guess it's OK.

[00:08:35] Busy person, which is a good thing. How long how long were you in this area?

[00:08:39] We were in that area for about five years, OK? And we loved it there. We were in Southern Cal before that and then Washington where I grew up. So my husband got a job offer up here and I have lots of family here. So it's kind of a dream come true for us to move up here. So we love California. We miss it. But right now it's 30 degrees outside

[00:09:01] And I turned the webcam around. You'd be a little jealous right now.

[00:09:04] Yes, I would.

[00:09:05] I did bring a jacket in today, though, just in case.

[00:09:08] It's is a jacket, right? Like that little sweater, lightweight jacket.

[00:09:13] Anything you miss in particular about this area of Northern California?

[00:09:15] I miss all the good restaurants.

[00:09:18] I was going. Yeah, what what were you go to? Because I mean.

[00:09:21] I mean when I say good. Yeah, no, this is this I'll teach you a lot about my family and I. We miss Chick fil A.

[00:09:29] We miss yeah.

[00:09:32] I mean the chain restaurants. But they were like we had our favorite places and we all had a dessert. We loved it. CPK So that was like our go to night out. And Spokane has actually a lot of local restaurants, which are probably amazing. We just haven't gotten out and figured out which ones we like.

[00:09:49] So very quick questions, people.

[00:09:52] Of course we miss that. Of course.

[00:09:53] Yeah, but Chick fil A, are you a nugget or a chicken sandwich?

[00:09:57] Oh, this is what you have to get a chick fillet the grilled nuggets. Hey, Chick fil A sauce. Yes. And the kale salad, which doesn't sound good, is delicious.

[00:10:07] There are you lost me on the kale salad. A chain saw some in. We can get used to it. Yeah, that's OK. Now, let me ask you two. Were you starting to wear you doing the coaching while you were here?

[00:10:19] Yeah, I did. I started it actually while I was there. So I've been coaching for almost four years now.

[00:10:24] And so I want to get in. I want to get into well, how that started. OK, but can I tell a very quick, vulnerable, embarrassing anecdote about

[00:10:33] Brees

[00:10:33] Doing well? So the way that I found out about you was I as my podcast is, I've got more episodes out there. I have had several people tell me, have you heard of bold new mom? And so then I was like, oh, check this out. Maybe I can maybe have her on helping out a little bit. And I go to your iTunes. It's like eight thousand five star reviews and everybody just loving your coaching practices. You're so busy that necessarily taking on the one on one client that I was like, wow, maybe she'll have maybe she'll take the time to field my email, so.

[00:11:03] Oh my gosh, that's so nice of you. I seriously am so honored that you would have me on because I do get a lot of well, you're just a fake therapist, but people tell me and I'm like, well, I'm not I'm not claiming to be a therapist, but, you know, I'm counseling people. Right. So I get where that comes from. But I so it says a lot about you that you're willing to even check out what I do. Not all therapists feel that way is just what I'll say.

[00:11:29] And I you know, it's funny and I can understand because there is a lot of therapists get on their high horse about when someone tells them that they're they've worked with the life coach and a therapist gets their dander up. And kind of, in my opinion, where as long as we're all helping and I've listened to your podcast episodes and you give amazing advice, you really do. Thank you. Because you're here. And I think we were talking a little before, but I've actually started sending some folks your way and I've had some good feedback. So I appreciate the work that you're doing.

[00:11:54] So awesome. Thank you.

[00:11:56] So tell me, though, where I didn't realize so four years ago, how did this all start? Maybe can you do a little bit of a. Sure. Who is Jodi? Where does she come from, you know, blaming you.

[00:12:05] So other than Chick fil A, I worked in a corporate setting for a long time. I worked in the same company about fourteen years. And at the end of my time there I was doing leadership coaching. I was a corporate trainer and the leadership coach. And so I was introduced to some coaching tools because my director there was a certified life coach. So she taught me the model, basic model I use now. And anyway, I just got a little taste of coaching in that corporate setting and I've loved it. I was like, this is I mean, it was different than any other kind of corporate training I had ever offered. How so?

[00:12:38] Because I did ten years in software before I became a therapist. I remember doing the. You're always going to these training, some cheesy, some not whatever. Right. What do you remember from that or something?

[00:12:48] So I remember before I started coaching and before I met this woman, Chris Blackey, who still does amazing leadership coaching. The way that you would help a manager, let's say, who is struggling would be to say, OK, so your employees not performing. So what have you done? Did you write them up? Did you get them more training? And it was just really direct, basic. This is what you need to do. And then I watched Chris Blackey, one time coach, a manager who had an employee that wasn't performing well and she didn't talk about the employee at all. She talked about the manager, about what was going on in his mind. And ultimately, she showed him that his belief when this employee doesn't do what he told her to do is that she doesn't respect him. OK, and then when you have an employee that you think doesn't respect you, then how does that impact your action? And ultimately for him, he avoids her. Sure.

[00:13:36] Ok, which

[00:13:37] Doesn't help her get any better at her job. Yeah. And and I could see this manager and like, his mind was blown like what? And so I was like, that is so much more powerful right now that this do this, do that. Some of that's necessary. But anyway, so it was it was not what people were expecting in a corporate environment at all, wasn't what they thought you were coming in to help them with what was so much more effective and helps people not just in their job, but in their lives. Sure. I just totally fell in love with it.

[00:14:10] Did you get resistance from some of the old guard? As far as this isn't productive? We need to tell people here's what you do

[00:14:16] Not really know because the results speak for themselves. So when them the performance starts going up, they were like, great, keep doing what you're doing. I we didn't get a lot of resistance. People really mostly were open to it. OK, so that was fun. Yeah.

[00:14:31] And I hate to put you on the spot, but it is nice fun stories from corporate training days of things that didn't go right or went sour.

[00:14:38] Oh my gosh. So many. Where do I begin. I loved corporate training actually even putting on the events like we would do kind of day long events where we pull people out of their cubicles and into a room. And I was lucky to get to have a team of trainers at about six or seven trainers that worked underneath me that were all amazing. And so we would send out surveys at the end of the day to ask for feedback on how the day went. And the number one thing, the number one complaint, I should say, was always whatever we serve for lunch. Oh, wow. So if we served pizza, they're like, why can't we have a nicer lunch? If we catered lunch, they're like, why can't we have pizza? I mean, it was like, we don't like thin crust pizza. We want thick crust pizza. So that was our running joke was like, we can never nail one everything. But if that's our biggest complaint, I think we're doing pretty well. It was it was fun.

[00:15:30] I wonder if that speaks to the deep psychological need for people to want to complain. There's something.

[00:15:33] Right. There has to be something.

[00:15:36] You'd be all perfect. So you do the corporate training and that that that goes well. At what point did you start to look at. I can help individuals.

[00:15:43] Well, the company that I worked for laid off eighty percent of us. Wow. Huge company. And they just made huge changes. And so at that point I was pregnant with my third child. My husband was making good money at the time. So we kind of stopped and assessed and it was like, I don't need to work, quote unquote. Yeah. And I thought, OK, maybe I'm just going to be home for a little while. And shortly after that, Brooke Castillo, who owns the Life Coach School at that point, lived in Folsom. Oh, wow. Are you there right near Roseville, where I was at the time, decided to offer for the first time and in person coach training. She'd been training coaches virtually for a while, but she was like, I want to train people in person. And I was like, I live right by her. I have to go to this. And I told my husband is like, I have no idea if I'm going to do anything with this ever. Yeah, I'm not really an entrepreneur by nature, but I really feel called to go to this class that she's teaching and it was pretty expensive. And my husband is great. I was like, all right, if you feel like you need to do it, we'll make it happen.

[00:16:44] And so I went through and by the time I got through that class and just learned all the tools and so much more depth and learned a little bit about how to market a business, a coaching practice, and I just came out of there, OK, now I'm going to do this. But again, it was never like I'm going to have at this big podcast, I'm going to have all these clients. I was just like, I'm just going to help some people. I think I know how to find some people to help. OK, I just really took one step at a time and with a lot of hard work, I don't mean so easy. I just fell into this. It was definitely hard work. But really, I just kept telling myself all I have to do is keep marching forward, just keep marching forward. I don't know how I'm going to get to I don't even know what the end goal is. Just keep marching forward. Just keep marching forward. And with failure along the way, too, that's fine. I failed. Now march forward.

[00:17:30] I love that. So I find and I probably a cheesy phrase, but I love to when a client is starting to, I say pull out their crystal ball. So they're saying, well, they probably I probably can't even get in. And there's traffic at that time of the day and that class is really pretty expensive. And I. We would probably say that that's not a smart idea. So, yeah, I guess that's not going to work. So you are basically you threw the crystal ball away and it's just one step at a time.

[00:17:50] Totally. I was like, I don't know. You're right. I don't know how I'm going to overcome that. I don't know what I'm going to do about traffic. I know what the next step is. That's all I need to know. Here's the next step. I'm going to take that one. Then I'm going to be OK. I mean, this is so fascinating, too. If you think about we want to know our brains like to know. Right. We don't like uncertainty. We want to be able to predict even if we know it's going to be hard, if we just know what the heart will be and when it will resolve itself. Yeah, that feels so much safer to us. But what I teach my clients is that you can't possibly know because the way doesn't unfold itself until you get a little closer like you and I had no idea that Zoom existed, which is how we're virtually right now. But two years ago, I didn't know it existed and so I couldn't have predicted. Well, the way I'll talk to Tony will be through Zoom, right? Exactly. Yeah. You just have to be willing to do all you need to know is the next step.

[00:18:41] Yeah, can I tell you that? And I will. This is not about me, but I got to this point where I said, OK, I'm going to go back and get my master's in counseling and I'll just get it because I had waited four years, I thought maybe I should. And then I finally said, I'll get it and maybe I'll never do anything with it, but I need to at least start. And then I got there. And then you get into a practical when you see clients and then you and I are now talking through Zoom, so.

[00:19:02] Right. And you're just like, oh, OK, that's how.

[00:19:04] Yeah, yeah. I love what you're saying though, where people will maybe say you've got a successful coaching practice and it's pretty easy for you and it's no, I took all the steps and risks and changes and.

[00:19:15] Yeah. Yes for sure.

[00:19:17] So when you got the certification, what's the next step? If you just open a sheet, you got a shingle and it's like coaching.

[00:19:23] I started with a blog. I started writing a blog. I wasn't trying to be a blogger. I was just trying to get content out there to teach people what I know and to find people that might be interested in in getting some coaching. I wrote a blog for the first couple of years. I just told myself this is again, what I had learned about building a business was that you need to be really consistent with your content. So I published a blog post every week without fail, even though I didn't always want to write it and they weren't all great, but I was just very consistent about publishing them and sharing them on Facebook. And and so I started to get some people saying, I really like what I'm reading in your blog. I did some free coaching in the beginning. I just created basically a six week program. I was like, OK, I want to help women. My passion is, is helping moms who are stay at home moms who are overwhelmed and unfulfilled. But you don't necessarily want to go to work. They just want to be happy again. So I was like, these are the six sessions I would teach. This is how I would coach them. I created that program and then I reached out and I coached some people for free through it so I could just test it out and practice my coaching. Yeah. And from there I was like, this is so good. Now start charging for it.

[00:20:35] And I think a lot of people assume that they are. I don't want to say I'm judgmental statements out, but that people go to this place where I can start making money or this isn't worth it. Or I've been doing this for two months and I'm not making any money. And I've been speaking of things for twenty years, youth conferences and churches and enrichment nights and whatever. But eventually that all comes together. I mean,

[00:20:57] Yeah, yeah. I like to think of money as like you're putting value out into the world and you're going to get value back in some way at some point. But it's not always going to be this linear. Like I work this many hours and now I get paid. Or to your point, I'll go speak at a church event any time. I'm not going to get paid for that. I know that's a value I'm putting into the world and it comes back to me in ways I never would have expected. I didn't honestly, I didn't start making money in my business until I made the first year. I made no money, basically. Or spent money. Yeah. Next year I made a little bit of money. It was like a job, like a job hobby. I mean, I was serious about it. It wasn't that in my mind. But like financially you'd been like, that's cute. Made a little money, right? It wasn't on my third year that I really took off. And my husband and I were like, whoa, you just passed up my income. Whoa, you just doubled my income. Wow. Oh, I think I should quit my job and work in your business. But that so that happened in my third year. But I honestly think those first two years I put so much value out into the world.

[00:22:02] My goal was to help people and serve people. And I was strategic. Don't get me wrong, I was I had a map of what I was building along the way, but I was all for even now when I when I go to sell something, I offer content to people for free in the way I think about it is OK, if I'm going to do that, let's say it's going to be a webinar, I'm going to teach something. I'm going to sell a program at the end. I think about that webinar like that person who's going to come to this webinar and is not going to buy anything for me. This is the one chance I have to try to help them with this topic. What's the best thing I could teach them in this? Forty five minutes. OK, and I create them. I create the webinar that way. And then at the end I tell them why I. I think that if they're able to and they want to, this program will help them so much and it costs money, but I'm putting so much value in that, I honestly feel like it's just all catching up now in ways that I never had planned on.

[00:22:55] Yeah. So do you remember do you remember those first few, the clients you worked with? You remember. Yeah. What was that. What was I like. Do you remember your first one.

[00:23:04] My gosh, I was like my first paying client. I remember thinking this person should not be giving me money. I don't know what they're thinking. I have no idea what I'm doing, really. Like, it's so hard. You want to be confident you have anything to pull your confidence from anything from your past. But what I did is I put my confidence in the tools. I knew that I had really amazing tools that I've been taught. And so I told myself these tools alone. I paid way more than this for these tools. These tools alone are valuable. And this was really key. And I still have to do this. I had to remind myself, oh, this isn't about me.

[00:23:42] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:23:44] Ok, right. Like, let me just show up and quiet all that drama in my own head about what are they going to think of me and am I good enough and let me just be present for them my tools. Let me engage with them, tell my own brain to just be quiet. And that's really

[00:23:59] And I apologize if you've already covered this topic. I did a podcast a couple of weeks ago on Imposter Syndrome. Are you are you pretty familiar with that? No. Oh, OK. That's highly recommended. Listen to that one, because this is where I've got a lot of feedback where people said, wow, I didn't realize that I've got somebody who is I've been trying to get to come on. And they're like, hey, I just listen to your episode on Imposter Syndrome and that's why I'm not coming on because. So, yeah, so I have it all the time. So where imposter syndrome is, I feel passionate about this and I feel, yeah, this isn't about me. I want to share. Yes. Like you and I want to share the tools I've learned from a decade on the couch and I want to help. I really do. And then in my head every now and again, I worry that somebody is going to knock on the door here and they're going to say, hey, we realize, like, all the stuff you're saying is actually dumb and, you know. Right. Really not kind of helping many people. So raise the laptop of your computer and that's enough.

[00:24:50] Can you stop

[00:24:51] Now? Yeah. Do you ever have that thought or those feelings?

[00:24:55] Oh, I again, like I because my confidence is in the tools. Yeah. I just feel like I know for sure those tools are so powerful and so even me and all my shortcomings, I do get people that make comments like that, like obviously no one can come in and shut my laptop, but I get people posting or commenting or emailing me about their opinions, then I don't know what I'm talking about or that I'm doing. I'm harming people in this way. I get all kinds of stuff. Yeah. And it's not that it doesn't affect me, it doesn't feel good. I mostly try not to read them, but but overall I do my own work. Yeah. What do I believe then. I know that everybody like it's ok. I'm not for everyone to like me, I just need to like me and all of that. I do. I really do my own work to not live in fear of that. If I don't, here's what happens when I don't, because I've been I've caught myself at times like thinking about that one negative comment that you or the handful about a certain topic. And what I want to start doing is in my next podcast episode, I find myself starting to talk to those people.

[00:26:02] Absolutely. Yeah. And what you're saying. Right.

[00:26:04] Right. And I like I a little bit want to convince them or and I want to defend myself. And then I realize, hold on. My podcast is getting like over a hundred thousand downloads a month, which is amazing. And maybe a hundred of them don't like what I have to say. Why am I talking to them? Why don't I talk to the other ninety nine thousand hitting a lot out of it. That's who I want to be talking to. So I have to I have to do that work on my brain.

[00:26:29] Yeah, no, that's

[00:26:30] Probably pretty good at it.

[00:26:31] I think the kids call them haters these days, right. Yeah, but that's a few. Yeah. We're human but we can but so I do a lot of work with trying to do mindfulness techniques. We've got these core beliefs or values and if the thought doesn't kind of jibe with those, it's just one of the many thoughts that go through our head. And let's move that one on through. Right? Yes, it would be hard. Yeah, I love that, though, the tools you're actually helping me in this moment. So there's I've never done much looking at the concept of ego in general. I'm curious.

[00:27:00] Yeah. I mean, a lot of people in my industry like to speak about the ego. You know, I use different words sometimes to describe it. But just that idea that there's maybe the natural man or the primitive brain or the part of us that lives in fear and thinks everything is about us and yeah, totally. I love. what I heard.

[00:27:19] And I think what you make me think of with this is I heard a I was at a training and they talked about the ego will have a pretty negative connotation often because we think of ego with regard to power and absolute power and power and corruption and pride and all that kind of stuff. And this person was saying, if the ego is based and wanting change and good and help, it was like Mother Teresa had an ego and Jesus had an ego and Buddha. And you go and Confucius said these things were inspired, it was to do

[00:27:45] It's not bad.

[00:27:46] Yeah, yeah. So I think that's the part where sometimes my negative self talk will say, who do you think you are, that kind of thing?

[00:27:51] Oh, right. Well, there's that kind of ego, like egotistical, whatever. You think that you're better than everyone else. More pride, which I think is how people think of that word. I think of it more like that part of you that's ultimate job is to keep you alive. Yeah. Yeah, we need that. Right. There's danger here. Let's watch out for that. Let's let's be careful. So, yeah, it's not a definitely not a negative thing. It just needs to be in check.

[00:28:18] Yeah. So what do you have some sort going back through that the your progression. So you start doing some coaching now you start getting some paying clients, the blog starting to pick up what came next and you start doing, than you do the podcast. What happened.

[00:28:33] Yeah I that is basically so I started to get more and more one on one clients. My business was growing. I was figuring out the marketing and things and then I decided to start a podcast. I had fallen in love with podcasts myself at that point and I can talk all day long. Talking is a lot easier for me than writing. Yeah, so there's some technology to figure out and all of that. But I just decided I'm going to stop blogging and start a podcast as my content instead. OK, so I started the podcast and I had my the people that had been following my blog I think started listening. So I had a few listeners in the beginning. But I again, consistency was so key. Like I became pregnant at that point with my fourth child. And I had I have published a podcast every week, including the week I had a baby. It would still be totally

[00:29:27] Level before or after the.

[00:29:30] It was after. It was exactly wow. Yeah. I always tell myself like a batch record that whole months at one day. But of course I never do that because I'm not very good at that. So I did, I was like, here, the baby's taking a nap. I'm gonna sit down and talk to people for twenty minutes and publish it like it's I love that anyway, so. Yeah.

[00:29:48] Hey, how hard is that though then when somebody is telling you man you don't get it, my life's hard or whatever and you want to say, are you kidding me? I record a podcast two days after I had a baby. OK, that difficult at times. I know that your your tools and skill set are such that that's I know that's not your style, but how hard is that on the inside?

[00:30:05] When I'm doing my job, I really I really keep myself out of it. OK, so what I'm trying to do always as a coach is show people their own brains. OK, so when they say to me, well, it's just so hard, I just don't have time. I have so much going on in my mind. I know that's just a story they're telling themselves, but. But what my job is to show them that it is just a story. It's not a fact. They think it's a fact. And they're like, let me show you all the things I have to do. And so I really it doesn't bother me in that sense. I just I'm showing them that when you believe that story, here's what result you create in your life. And then it may bring in I have a few things on my plate. This is the way I think about it. And people do say to me all the time, oh, you're just so busy. You must be so busy. They try to sell you that story. Yeah, they think it's kind and they're trying to be empathetic, which I totally appreciate, but I don't ever buy it. I say, no, I'm just so lucky.

[00:30:58] I love

[00:30:58] That life. Like, busy. I'm so busy is not a useful story ever. And it's always the story.

[00:31:04] I love it. So if you assume that maybe this will help people, who are they? I want to obviously send people your way that are going to listen to this podcast because I love that message. How do you do that? How do you show someone that story? How do you lay that out?

[00:31:19] So I have a coaching model. I put it into where we take a look at, OK, your thought is I'm so busy. And then how does that make you feel? Because our thoughts are creating our feelings. Yeah. And it makes us it makes me feel overwhelmed usually. Right. That thought. And then your feelings are the fuel for your action. So when you feel overwhelmed, what do you do or not do? And it's so fascinating how the brain works when we're overwhelmed. What we want to do is shut down. Like I'm just I think I should just go watch Netflix for a while before or maybe we start taking a little bit of action. But it's really painful when resistance we do it because the brain doesn't like to be overwhelmed. And so we actually get less done when we believe that we're so busy. So I show them that. And the result of that is your to do list grows and you don't get to the things you want, which reinforces the original thought. I'm so busy. So I show them that and I help them really see that. That's what you're creating for yourself. And then we'll move to what do you want to believe instead. OK, so again, it maybe we'll start with what do you want your action to look like or how do you want to feel or what result do you want? But ultimately it has to come down to what story is still has to be a believable story. I'm not really big on positive affirmations and just trying to convince yourself, like I have plenty of time. If you don't believe that your brain will just reject it and start looking for reasons to disprove it. But you find a thought like for me, I'm just so lucky I have such a full life, but you have to find a thought that is more empowering, that's going to drive the action that you want. So it's that process that we go through and coaching.

[00:32:55] Ok, do you have an I'm curious, do you have some kind of thoughts or stories or examples that you that come to mind or some pretty dramatic change that you've seen?

[00:33:04] Yeah, I would say like where I love seeing progress. I've seen some people make some great progress in their marriages in terms of the way they're thinking about their spouse. One client in particular, I'll share she her she's a member of the LDS church. There's a lot of my clients are. And her husband had left the church, decided he no longer believed it. And so she was struggling with what is our marriage look like now and just finding peace. And as I coached her through that whole process of what does she want to believe about her life, about her husband, about herself, about all of it. And it's a process. But ultimately, she recently sent me an email saying just she's had so much peace to the extent she talked about going to visit. I think it was a relative who brought up this this situation where her husband no longer is active in the church. And she said, normally I avoid it and I want to be quiet. I don't want to talk about it. I'm kind of it's uncomfortable. And she's I didn't feel that at all. I was like, yeah, that's what he's chosen. And she's like, I just felt all this peace that I could be genuine and authentic and not have all this resentment. Really amazing work she did there. Yeah.

[00:34:12] So sort of her then shutting down and feeling trapped and stuck and all these other

[00:34:16] Feeling like she has to defend or explain something she just like when you get to peace, it's like Byron Katie says you don't have to love me. That's my job. OK, yeah. And when you get to that place it's OK for people to misunderstand me. It's OK for people to have judgments. We all do at times. I just need to be there for me. I need to love me and my life and my situation and then I can handle all the rest of it.

[00:34:43] I'm hearing now that that theme, because if we go back to you having confidence in your tools and the work you're doing and it goes back to when we hear these negative thoughts or opinions of others, why do we let it affect us so much? Right.

[00:34:57] Yeah, I love helping. That's the other one that comes to my mind is to some women that I've seen their confidence go up so much because I remember as a new mom, I had this realization one day that people that are confident do well. They not only are they successful, whatever that means, but they also handle challenges better. And confidence is so useful, not to mention fun. Yeah. And I remember asking around, like, now what if my kids are lacking in confidence? How do we teach confidence? How do we build confidence obviously comes from like life experiences and. Right. And accomplishing something. Build your confidence. But I'm like, what if I have kids that I want to help be more competent? And everybody I asked was like, I don't know. I'm not really sure how you give people. Maybe you're just born with it. Kind of maybe some people have it and some people don't. And so I remember thinking, no, there has to be a way. And anyway, the coaching tools have really shown me how to help people build confidence and especially as adults, right where your brain isn't as neuroplastic in your personality's a little more set. They feel like I'm just not a competent person able to help people build confidence, helps them anything they do in life. And that I just love seeing that transformation.

[00:36:11] I love how when you said that, listen to that's the story they're telling themselves. Right. How long have they been telling themselves that? Yeah, right. You mentioned the word fun. And I want to go with the this is an interview. I love everything you share. But for people that are going to come here and learn more about, you know, it's probably not talking about me. Exactly. Let's do it right. So hobbies, what do you like to do?

[00:36:30] Oh, my gosh. Hobbies. I used to be an avid runner. I've run a couple of marathons, OK, but now not as much, but I do still enjoy being active.

[00:36:41] And what what marathons did you run?

[00:36:43] I ran the St George Marathon and then I ran the San Diego Rock and Roll Marathon, you know, like a triathlon. Are you OK?

[00:36:51] So actually, I'm not that strong a swimmer, but yeah. No, I run I run a couple of hundred marathons and ultramarathons, so I've done the St George when I had to get to ten times so I could get the T-shirt that says I'm in the technical ten times.

[00:37:03] But it was

[00:37:03] Funny. Yeah. I mean but that's a beautiful, beautiful run right.

[00:37:06] Oh yeah. Gorgeous.

[00:37:08] Yeah. So you OK. A little bit of running like that. A little bit

[00:37:11] Of activity that way and the gym or whatnot at this point is my new running. Honestly I, I used to sew since I started my business. I think my creative need is really met through all my marketing and everything. So I haven't done any of that in a while. If it's if I have time and my choice, I'm like, let's just go to a movie. I just like hanging out with a group of people I love. I'm definitely an extrovert. I love to be around people just engaging with a group of friends. My family and I will ski a little bit. It's like,

[00:37:41] Can I do? Tony's ADD moment for just a second. Do it when you said so, I just thought this was the coolest thing to see this cute. So I have just a wonderful younger girl client that we were talking about, things that bring up her. I call it the emotional baseline so that she could be in this better position to respond to the things around her. And she mentioned sewing. And I just done a training where this guy was talking about when you're working with young boys, in particular teenage boys, they have this part of the brain that just wants to fidget and kick and whatever. And so he was talking about me. And if you were just playing catch in your office, that would satisfy I think it's part of the limbic brain and then they would, in theory, open up. But I tried that and not all kids are coordinated. So we're like knocking stuff over some

[00:38:22] The like everywhere.

[00:38:24] Exactly. So then she said and ironically, she said, I love to sew cubes. So I thought, there it is cubes. Then she maybe this cube it's through in this bad boy around and it's working.

[00:38:35] So that is so cool.

[00:38:38] I love that you mentioned movies. I did a podcast online yesterday and I actually found some research on the top ten movies that people lie about that they've seen. So I thought, oh really? Yeah.

[00:38:48] So I listen to that podcast

[00:38:51] And no one was that was The Godfather. So I don't know if you've ever

[00:38:54] Not seen the whole thing. I've seen pieces of it. I won't lie.

[00:38:57] Now, what kind of movie? What do you like? Are you a rom com? Are you a comedy or a thriller?

[00:39:02] Oh, I think that I love my favorite is like a chick flick comedy like Pitch Perfect. But they don't make them very often and they're often a little bit crass for my taste, but I can only get more of those and clean them up just a little. I do love comedy. I just think like laughing and let's just have fun even in my business. That's how I try to think about it when my brain's like, this is so scary. How are you going to do that? And like, stop. Yeah, this is just going to be fun. OK, if I mean, I love any really any thing where I'm sitting in a dark theater, especially if there's no little kids and I have a Diet Coke, I'm happy

[00:39:39] I was going to ask, are you a popcorn or no popcorn?

[00:39:42] I used to eat popcorn, but I really cleaned up my diet lately.

[00:39:45] So I feel judged because of my judgment whatsoever.

[00:39:50] I was a popcorn for many years.

[00:39:52] I just I love it. I do know that I love the kind of movie. What what's your favorite date night with your husband?

[00:39:57] I would say honestly, dinner with a small group of friends. I just love to connect with other adults. It's so rare when you have little kids that you get to do that without kids interrupting every minute. So just to go out with a small group and just hang out and visit is like my ideal. OK, my husband, of course.

[00:40:16] Exactly. Exactly. Hey, tell me about I pulled some stuff off of your website and one of those is this. It's ask Jodi anything to get started. And what's that about?

[00:40:26] Yeah. Well, that's anybody listening who wants to come is welcome to go there. So I the podcast has just grown so tremendously and I'm so thrilled with how people are responding to it. But I get inundated with questions about I love what you've got on there. I have this situation. What would you advise? And I used to try to answer those and I realized eventually I just couldn't do it. So I have that call. I do it about once a month. It's free, open to the public. And people come and they pop their question into the chat box. So it's anonymous to anyone other than me. I can see their name if they typed in their name. But it's it's it's kind of a safe environment for them. I get through as many questions as I can and I just answer them right there live on the call. So it's I feel like it's so good because ten people have the same question to answer it once, but also to hear other people sometimes like other people, ask the questions that we don't even think to ask. So it's just a really fun way for me to give a little bit extra on top of the podcast. That's doable for me.

[00:41:31] What's the you have the number one question you get asked?

[00:41:35] I would say it's a lot of, again, marriage type stuff, marriage questions, but also because I do the word mom is in the title of my podcast. A lot of women are coming to me saying, can you give me advice on how to teach this to my child? And I never do that. Actually, I always coach the mom. It's like the manager saying, what do I do with this employee? OK, and so rather than say, do this with your employer or try this with your child, I'll give them a little bit of some of that. But mostly I'm like they'll say, this is just so heartbreaking. My child is full of self-loathing and I'm trying to teach her what you teach about confidence, but she's just not getting it. How do I help my child? And I always begin with what let's talk about why it's so heartbreaking. It's fine for you to feel sad for your child and not try and take that away. But is it really serving you to be so emotionally upset? How are you going to show up for your child? So I always coach them. The mom. I love it. That's not what I meant.

[00:42:34] Yeah, well, you had a you had a podcast not long ago, and I, I

[00:42:37] Just did

[00:42:38] That. And I really liked where you were talking about. Sometimes it's just about it's you feel uncomfortable with the situation? Yeah, that was nice. Sure, yeah. Do you ever get some questions that are just ridiculous?

[00:42:51] Oh, yeah,

[00:42:52] Yeah, you complain.

[00:42:53] Usually I just don't read them. They don't read them off because people can't see where they're coming in and I never get to all of them, unfortunately. Let me think, what are some ridiculous ones?

[00:43:03] I guess I feel bad because now somebody is going to say, wait a minute, I was going to ask that question, apparently that, you

[00:43:08] Know, I love them. Like, I honestly like I'm really good at when I'm coaching. Getting in the headspace of neutrality, it doesn't matter what people bring out me, I'm ready. I'm neutral. I'm looking for what's happening in your brain is you're honestly what I'm looking for. So when I'm not cutting, I'm back to like my human self that has judgment and all that as much as I try not to. But in the coaching space, I'm generally looking for what are they what's driving that problem for them. So like on a on one of my coaching calls in my group program, once my sister helps me in my business, although she's also a coach. And so she happened to be on the call and the woman presented with my next door neighbor murdered his wife. Whoa. And that was the first thing she said. And I was just listening for OK. And she says, then there's these children now that are left without a mother that I've been watching. And the whole thing she wanted coaching on was I feel like I should adopt these children, but I don't really want to and I don't know how to make this decision. And so that's what I coached her on, was what was going on with the children making this decision? Well, after the call, my sister was like, I love how you're so in that space that somebody tells you their next door neighbor murdered their wife and you don't even react, OK? Hey, tell me what else I like. I really do just turn on this part of my brain that's like listening for what is her problem. It's not what she thinks it is, right?

[00:44:31] Yeah, I love that. So I have this cheesy phrase right. Talk about I want people to the more open and honest they can be, obviously the better work we can do. And people are still hesitant to really open up. And I always have this little thing on my shoulder. That's the oh my gosh o-meter. And I promise you, it doesn't even really move. This is good. I want my creation. But I have always wondered before I have this thought of someday I'm going to get the hey, I'm a serial killer. And because we have confidentiality, if it's in the past, then what I do with that and if they're not telling me, we'll do it again. And so I haven't had that yet. Do you feel closer to that than I have?

[00:45:05] Yeah. Oh, no. And it was her neighbor. If somebody said that to me, I would be like, you need to call Tony. I think I'm not at their best. So I just said, all of those people to you

[00:45:16] And that part, my oh, my gosh, o-meter actually might go up a little bit.

[00:45:20] Yeah, totally. Yes, of course. I'm still human. I'm just, like, listening for certain things, so

[00:45:25] I have to. Yeah. Have you ever had when have you been doing that call? For a long time. I mean, do you ever have times where there aren't that flow of questions?

[00:45:33] Oh, no. It's always it's always packed. And I haven't I probably been doing it maybe six months, not too long.

[00:45:41] And I that's my way to wedge a personal anecdote into your it.

[00:45:44] I do.

[00:45:45] When you're saying that I will go speak at a lot of firesides, things like that, it will be people will say, hey, we're going to take questions for you. And I was a one once and I got all these three by five cards. And honestly, there were a couple of statements. Many of them were blank. There was one about, oh, your head's shiny. And so I had to I was like, oh, here's a good question. This person wants to know. And I was kind

[00:46:07] Of leaving it up to you to say you just make them up. And so but when I started doing webinars, I had that I would be prepared with some questions in case nobody asked them. Yeah, it happened. That's how everybody it just happened.

[00:46:21] So I think. Exactly. OK, so this call, their next one is Thursday, March 22nd, 9:00 a.m. Pacific. And then what else what other services do you offer? We were talking a little bit off the air of the one on one. Is that you?

[00:46:34] I don't do one on one coaching anymore because I got to a point where I had so much demand that I was going to have to just start charging a lot more and or working all night. And I didn't want to do either. And so I find that the group coaching is actually honestly, in many cases, even more powerful for people, because hearing other people, hearing their situation, you're not in the midst of it. So you're not as emotionally attached to it. So you still get the learning of the tool and see that real life application. But sometimes it's easier to apply it to your situation when you learn it through somebody else's experience. So I think the group coaching is just such a win for me and for my clients. It's less money for them to pay me. It allows me to serve more. People know anyway, everything I do right now is in groups, but I should say within. So I have basically an online program similar to the way you pay a monthly service at the gym, pay me a monthly fee to come where I teach a class.

[00:47:36] We do live coaching calls. They have access to me online. They have access to a bunch of classes and tools I've created. So they pay that monthly fee to come in there and be in those calls and continue to learn and continue to get help. And so they come and stay as. Little or as long as they want to basically, OK, which has been phenomenal for people, and then so within that program we do offer some more individualized or really small group help to members who are in there who say, I just really am going through this crisis right now. I really need a little more one on one. So I have coaches that work with me in there that will do some of that. OK, but everything otherwise is through that program. And then I do some in-person events too. So I love doing the live events where I just teach everything at once and we do really in-depth coaching and I try to give them all of my tools and make it a really inclusive experience.

[00:48:29] So is that where your training back in the corporate world, does that help when you're organizing a big event like that? I guess that brings me some anxiety to think about that.

[00:48:38] Oh, really? No, I, yes, I. I am a good teacher and I got my master's degree in adult education and training and I have a lot of experience doing that. And I just I enjoy it. I'm good at it. Yeah. And when I first started working with moms, which I started to work with a lot of other people now as well. But when I first started working with moms, I was like, we put on these great corporate retreats. People leave on fire and they feel supported. They have new tools. You know, who needs that? Stay at home moms and who doesn't get that? Stay at home moms. So I was like, I'm going to do that for the moms. Yeah. So I only do it once a year or so. But I try to create like an amazing, inspiring experience.

[00:49:23] And I think and I think where. Yeah, and I because I love the speaking part, I think what I was even thinking about is I can't imagine the organization. Is that one of your strong suits of how we plan at all?

[00:49:32] You know, I at all. But I keep it simple. I do. I keep it simple. We don't do elaborate decor or meals, even if you're going to come and then you're going to go to lunch wherever you want. So I keep it really simple, OK? I'm not I don't love that organization either.

[00:49:48] Ok, all right. No, that makes me feel better. Yeah. Already on the lunch thing. So that sounds like

[00:49:53] I don't have to take complaints about lunch. They just go wherever they want.

[00:49:56] Yeah, that's perfect. Do you have expansion's. Is there going to be a bold new dad. Is there, are you had are you open to do this until your bold new grandma.

[00:50:03] What's right. What's the long term. I really I want to take the word mom out of everything because because we are expanding. But also even as a mom myself, like, I, I love being a mom and love my children, but I don't always identify with that title. I can go to the pediatrician and they say, OK, mom, you're ready. And I want to be like, but I have a name anyway, so I want to get that word out of there for a lot of reasons. I'm still going to keep focusing like I have, but we are starting to expand a little bit. I don't know what it will look like ultimately, but I do have visions of I think I would love I work with a lot of members of the Mormon Church. I would love to see a pre marriage class for engaged couples. It's like every other church has that I don't know why ours doesn't.

[00:50:48] Huge need for that. There really is.

[00:50:50] Yeah, I think there's a great opportunity to work with some of our youth. I think there's opportunity to help the men in some way with whatever they're wanting. I think also to help return missionaries or before you go out on a mission. All of these tools, I think, are so useful in all those scenarios. So we don't have those programs at this point. But that is my long term vision, is to create programs for all of that. So that's

[00:51:13] Wonderful.

[00:51:13] That is a lot to do.

[00:51:15] Yeah, it's great. And then your whole attitude is what a blessing to have this opportunity. Right?

[00:51:21] For sure. I am like pinch myself every day that I get to do this. It's fantastic.

[00:51:26] Hey, I've taken fifty minutes of your time. I really appreciate you taking the time, Jody. I really be at the blast. I really was

[00:51:32] So I'm so happy to do it and I would love to have you come on my podcast too.

[00:51:37] I've been trying not to beg for that. I would love to

[00:51:40] Know but I would love to have you. Come on. So I want to go listen to a couple more of yours just so that I can be picky about. Oh, I love this topic. OK, I have a topic you're passionate about too, but I'll reach out to you and with you time.

[00:51:54] Ok, great. I would love to any time. Yeah. OK, I'm going to hit stop on the recording but if you can hang on one second. But yeah. Jodi, thank you so much for taking the time and being here on the virtual couch.

[00:52:05] Thank you for having me.

linkedin facebook pinterest youtube rss twitter instagram facebook-blank rss-blank linkedin-blank pinterest youtube twitter instagram