Nate Christensen, APCC (working under the clinical supervision of Tony Overbay, LMFT) shares his personal journey in living with depression and shares his "Ten Commandments of Managing Depression." Depression is a diagnosable mental illness and treatment is available! Depression is estimated to affect up to 20% of the adult population at some point in their lives and symptoms can come on as early as grade school. If you believe that you, or someone that you know, is struggling with symptoms of depression, please seek help from a mental health professional. There are many treatment options available! Please visit the @virtualcouch on Instagram for a list of Nate's 10 Commandments of Managing Depression. And if you are interested in working directly with Nate, please reach out to him through the contact form at http://tonyoverbay.comPlease subscribe to The Virtual Couch YouTube channel at https://www.youtube.com/c/TheVirtualCouchPodcast/ and follow The Virtual Couch on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/virtualcouch/
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[00:00:01] Hey, pop quiz, do you know the difference between a marriage and family therapist, a clinical social worker, a professional clinical counselor, a psychologist and a psychiatrist? And I would say that for most people to email me or come into my office or write my name on a check, actually even people in my immediate family, I am pretty sure that that answer is no. And does it even matter? Kind of. I remember one time in particular where somebody was desperately trying to get a family member in to see me. I'd worked with someone else in their family. And so despite a very full schedule, I made time. I fit this person in and they came into the first session. And as I started to lay out the standard things that a therapist says in their first session about confidentiality, harmed yourself and others don't hurt old people. If I bump into you on the street, etc., he hands this piece of paper and it has a list of medications on it. And I looked at him and I thank them. And I started up again with my spiel and he cuts me off and said, Hanaway only have a really short amount of time and an amount of this medication. I'm curious what you thought about this other one. Would you recommend that I switch this one up? Would you bump up the dosage? And I thought to myself, You OK? Easy there, champ.
[00:01:09] We literally have forty seven more minutes. We'll get to the medications as this initial assessment happens. And he cuts me off again. And he asked me if I will be able to write him a prescription for a refill of his current meds nonetheless, because he is running out. And I explained that I was a licensed marriage and family therapist and that I couldn't write prescriptions. And he said, OK, honestly, I don't wanna waste your time, but that's all I'm looking for. And he really did. He literally got up and he left. So in that scenario, it definitely helps to know the difference. So simply put, the first three examples I gave a marriage and family therapist, that would be me, a clinical social worker, a professional clinical counselor. We all received bachelor's degrees. And then we went on to get master's degrees in some type of counseling or social work program. And so what we can do is we can then see clients and one on one therapy settings and some, like clinical social workers, can see clients like I do. And they can also go into the community and they connect people with resources. And if you didn't want to stop with the master's degree, then you go on to get your side or doctorate of psychology, which typically takes about another three years.
[00:02:13] And that is what makes you a clinical psychologist and the title of doctor. And in that scenario, you're more likely to work with individuals who maybe have more severe mental illness and you also work more with psychological testing. So a psychiatrist than that is the medical doctor. They've literally gone to medical school, they've delivered babies, they've done their rounds, but then they settle into the brain, the mental health, and they are the only ones out of the professions that I mentioned that can prescribe medication. So why am I saying this out? Is the intro to this episode about depression? Well, it's because this is a special bonus episode with a guy named Nate Christiansen. And at the time when we recorded this episode, probably I think it was probably three years ago, Nate was in school getting his master's degree in counseling to become a professional clinical counselor. So Nate graduated and he did what's called a practicum, where he spent almost a year seeing clients for a nonprofit organization. And then after completing his practicum, he is now on the road to receiving some three thousand hours total of experience before he can sit for his licensing exams. So he definitely has some some road under his tires. And while a therapist or a counselor is putting in those pre licensure hours, they have to work under the supervision of a licensed supervisor.
[00:03:27] So drum roll, please. I am happy to share that. I am working with Nate in the position as his clinical supervisor. So we meet weekly in supervision. He has an office in my building and he is officially open for business and taking new clients. So if you live in the state of California or specifically if you want to come in the office in the Sacramento area or the Roseville ish area and you're looking for help and you like what you hear in this episode, please feel free to reach out through the contact form on my website at Tony Overbay.com and I will put you in touch with Nate. So he has primarily been working with adult and adolescent males, but he has experience with most all ages, both male and female, and he works a lot with depression. You're going to hear a lot about that today. Or anxiety, ADHD and addiction. And I say this often, one of the most important factors in the success of therapy is the relationship between the therapist and the client. So if you don't feel like you can trust or be open with your therapist, then progress can be far more difficult to achieve. So with that said, I am excited to share this bonus episode with Nate, where he lays out his Ten Commandments of working with depression. And Nate will be coming on soon to record a new episode on attachment and addiction based on some of the work he did in graduate school, which is absolutely amazing.
[00:04:36] So more of that in the coming weeks. So let me get to my interview with Nate Christiansen, associate professional clinical counselor, working under the supervision of yours truly. And I left a lot of the intro of that initial recording in because it was kind of fascinating. I wasn't going to talk about this, but we were on our way. My wife and my daughter Mackie, who's been on a couple of episodes and myself, we're on our way to drop Mackie off to college for the very first time. And so it is kind of fascinating that that was she spent a year there working with school and college and then kind of discovered her true passion, which was cosmetology school and recently just graduated from there. So I didn't realize that. Yeah, it's been a little while since we recorded this episode, but I talk about that in the beginning because there were some significant things that we talked about in the car ride on the way to school while we were talking about this episode. So without any further ado, let me get to my interview with Nate Christianson. Come on. So, hey, everybody, just a quick note before we get to today's podcast, today's podcast deals with the topic of depression.
[00:05:59] There are a lot of people that are very close to me that struggle with symptoms of depression. So I did send this podcast out to a few of those people beforehand and received some amazing feedback. I actually listen to this podcast while driving with my wife and daughter out to drop her off at college. And we even used a lot of these takeaways that my guest, Nate Nate Christiansen, leaves these he calls him is Ten Commandments of Managing Depression. So the episode is excellent. I think it's going to help a lot of people. But some of the feedback I received from some people that were very close to me is that the talk around depression for someone who is feeling depressed can feel almost somewhat triggering, especially when you hear the numbers or if you hear some of the the symptoms or signs of depression. So I just wanted to give you a little bit of a warning and just say, hey, if you are in struggling with depression, then I do feel like the Ten Ten Commandments of managing depression will help greatly. So please, I hope that you will hang in there and listen to these to the full podcast and get these takeaways. I'm also going to try to come up with a nice graphic and put those on the virtual couch Instagram page. But I just want to let you know that we are going to deal with some signs, symptoms, numbers, facts before we get to those Ten Commandments of managing depression.
[00:07:09] So I want to give a little bit of a heads up. If you are struggling with depression or even if you think you may have signs of depression, please go see a mental health professional, the virtual couch podcast. As much as I am just passionate about it and love it is no replacement for therapy. So with that said, one more quick thing. When Nate comes on, I mentioned a there's like an auditory. It's well, it's actually it's called Misophonia. It's a selective sound sensitivity syndrome. So I could not think of the name at the time. I actually said it very quickly, Misophonia. But that's the word that I was looking for. If you want to know more about Misophonia, give it a quick look. Dr Google can help Misophonia Misso Enayat and that is when you may maybe be you or somebody that you're close to is not just annoyed with chewing sounds, breathing, that sort of thing, but it just they feel it's like nails on a chalkboard and that it's going to just absolutely drive them crazy. So there is something called Misophonia, which there's some good information out on the Web, and I wanted to get Nate on for a while.
[00:08:07] And so, Nate, I've been traded a lot of messages to just see what he would like to come on and talk about. And he has a lot of experience in working with depression. And he shares some of his own struggles with depression on the show today. And so I'm grateful for that. He brought a Ten Commandments of managing depression, which I thought was amazing. I did not know that was coming. So he has some really ten solid takeaways today, which I think is brilliant. And I just have to tell you, I'm recording this now because when I would normally be doing the recording and editing, that sort of thing, I would be taking daughter number two away to college with my wife. And I just that is what an experience that the first time that I did it a few years ago, I could not believe how exciting, but yeah, how emotional it was at the end. A ball like a baby was. I had a good enough dad, that sort of thing. And so I'm sure that's going to play out again. But if you get the chance, if you haven't, this is one of those things to wear when it was time to take first daughter to school. Admittedly, I didn't know. I don't know how the game is played and that's not a good excuse. When my wife was saying, hey, we're we're going out there, and then I was like, yes, we are in my man brain went into, OK, I'm going to take that time off of work.
[00:09:14] And I only had whatever I work for myself, but I'm not in the chair. I'm not making money. And we've got to pay for this. And it's college. And then I have to think, OK, you know, this is a time where I need to put the needs of my family and ahead of any of those man brain things and trust that I will do whatever it takes, I will work as hard as I need to to make that happen. And oh my gosh, am I glad that I did. It was such an experience. And so I'm giddy with getting out there to take her. So by the time this thing airs, I'm already there. And and it's and it's going well. I know it is. I think it is more fact. When I released this episode, I will have already last night said a very tearful goodbye. It was very emotional, I'm sure, but I hope that I'm doing OK and not just sobbing all the way home. Actually, it's OK if I saw the way home. It's all right. Normal human emotion. Nothing wrong with that. I'm not a robot. So now let me get on to that interview with Nick Christiansen.
[00:10:01] Take it away, Nate.
[00:10:09] Nathan, you immediately got a hearing on my gun.
[00:10:12] Yeah, well, you don't sound like a couch on Cotter's.
[00:10:16] Yeah. What's the there's a do you know that there's a it's not a disorder, but there is there's a thing, Doug, on it. I should know this before where it's people are really tuned in to sound. I want to say it's Mr. Misophonia. Is it what I'm talking
[00:10:32] About that you got me
[00:10:34] Ok? I don't want to take the time to look at it, but I might have to. When you were talking to some point, I probably get back to it on that. But where people just become so and just attuned to chewing sounds, slurping sounds. I have someone near to me that they just will hear chewing and just say, hey, can you knock it off? And at first I thought everybody to kind of relax and then but there's a I got to find this now. I will find this. I will find this. I will post about it. But it's because then it kind of helps people. It normalizes that they don't feel they're crazy if all they can do is focus in on somebody chewing or whatever. So for those people who may have the disorder of whatever, I don't know what it is. I thought my head. I'm sure they thank you for throwing away your gun. Not a problem. All right. This is repeat. Guess Nate Christianson. Nate, welcome back to the Virtual Couch. Thanks to our first episode I love and I'll shoot you a text when I get hey, somebody brought it up in a session today. We talked about, oh, our first episode.
[00:11:25] We're talking about decision making. I know. Why don't you go? That was like,
[00:11:30] Oh, that I like. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was a blast. And I still pull the I can sound really smart. You talked about the Dunning Kruger effect. I will pull that out all the time when somebody will tell me a story about that somebody is going on and on about something they don't really know about in my. Oh you mean the Dunning Kruger effect. So I learned that from Nate. So Nate, I've been wanting to do another episode for a while. We were trying to zero in on a topic. And this is a big topic, right? We're table to talk about depression. And I thought that I would start out a little bit by just giving some facts about depression. The World Health Organization estimates that as many as three hundred million people suffer from depression worldwide and the United States alone, more than 15 million people suffer from major depressive disorder. And so it's when I first saw that number and it says six point seven percent of the population over the age of 18. Immediately, I thought it was kind of low. But that is the what meets major depressive disorder criteria, which maybe we can talk about. But there really aren't a lot of numbers of how many people just have a not a major depressive disorder, but just feelings of depression,
[00:12:28] You know, actually. So I was looking into this like trying to prep for us talking. And it appears the numbers I'm seeing. Yes. Is over the course of any given year, 10 to 20 percent of the population may be suffering from some sort of depression.
[00:12:43] Wow. OK, so any given year and then and it's one of those type of things that they can it can hit anyone and people go through the times, their lives or they feel like they are more depressed. They're situational depression where people can be met with some life changing event that brings on depression and their seasonal depression. We're heading out of the summer, heading into the winter. I think that's one of the main times that you see a lot of seasonal depression and depression. So I was OK. So many people have depression turned to drugs and alcohol to make them feel better, numb themselves from their feelings. And so estimates state that approximately ten point two million adults live with a co occurring mental health and addiction disorder. And I think that if you really step back and think about it, that's what makes treating depression even more difficult, because when people feel bad and then they turn to something to help them feel better. And typically it's not, hey, how about a little bit more exercise or some deep breathing? Usually it's just, name the addiction.
[00:13:35] Right. And we'll probably talk a little bit more about this. I have major depressive disorder, so I'm 40. I was diagnosed with it when I was 22. I can recall feeling feelings of depression, significant depression as far back as elementary school. There's something that's and it's genetically there is a genetic component. Yeah. But we don't know exactly what it is. So you got where you can't get to. Oh this is exactly the. Because we don't know for sure. Yeah. For, for me personally when it comes to to my own depression and managing my own depression, I know there's just a ton of things that you can do to make it better, but there's almost equally amount of things you can do to make it worse. It might make it better for that moment, but then afterwards, it's just compounding so much worse.
[00:14:23] Yeah, exactly. OK, I've never actually gotten a phone call and I'm doing it. I guess I've not decided yet if I will try to delete that.
[00:14:31] I guess one person's up at six forty two in the morning. I don't know
[00:14:35] Your family, so I was like a telemarketer. I been getting a bunch of those lately on my cell phone and lobular. I don't think so. I think the ones that are trying to sell me. OK, now look at this. Got me in a ADD moment and all that. I was playing one for my wife last night where somebody so funny, they're so casual and it just says they don't say my name of course has trees. Just follow up on that two hundred fifty thousand or line of credit we were talking about. I got right here on my desk and and I don't understand the what am I supposed to go, oh my gosh, I forgot that I had set up this quarter of a million dollar line of credit with Teresa. I need to call her back and give her all. All of my information, my Social Security number, my bank account number, who falls for that?
[00:15:12] You can ask the same question. How many Nigerian princes are going to get money out of us?
[00:15:17] Because a fair amount, the guys seem very legitimate, seem very legitimate at the time. OK, so let's go. OK, but you were talking about, though, as many of those things that you can do that are good, the siren song of addiction calls as well. Whenever someone feels down and it can look like video games, gambling, pornography addiction, alcohol, even people can become addicted to exercise and that all the time.
[00:15:39] Sure. Well, I think in terms of addiction, if you have to be addicted to something, exercise is probably low on the list of don't be addicted to that.
[00:15:47] It could be that there are worse things. Yeah, full disclosure, a lot of times I in my intro, I was so ultramarathon runner and I love getting to go talk about running these 100 mile distances or twenty four hour runs. And when people just in general say, why do you. I love to say I just because I can or so I can eat ice cream. But at its core it's there is some belief that we're all addicts of some sort. So it's like how do you how do you find that socially acceptable, quote, healthy? Did air quotes addiction? And so the writing becomes one, but I've been pretty open about it. If I don't write a couple of days without running, then I am shorter, fatter, bolder. I'm a worse husband, father, a therapist, those sorts of things, because it becomes just a part of what I need. Sure, yeah.
[00:16:27] Yeah. I mean, when you're looking at exercise, specifically when you're looking at addiction, there's there appears research seems to be pointing towards an underactive dopamine system. And that's where people oftentimes have a propensity towards addiction. And one of the things we don't necessarily know that it's the cause. In fact, I think a lot of researchers believe it's not the cause, but neurotransmitters, huge problem when it comes to depression. Yeah. So you can see the connection there. Dopamine is neurotransmitter. People that have addictions are using that addiction to get dopamine. Yeah. And a lot of people that are depressed have issues of dopamine levels, serotonin levels, norepinephrine levels, all neurotransmitters. So that's probably at least partially the connection you
[00:17:10] I'm reading a book right now called The Body Keeps the Score, which is just it's a fascinating book. It's really dealing with trauma and PTSD. But the one of the parts that I read yesterday was talking about and I loved how he said even people like that are trying to run. He used a marathon runner where they begin to slowly as they embrace the pain, they then there is a he's saying a physiological physiological change in the brain that then goes to not only then embracing the pain, but then the pain becomes the normal thing. The pain becomes somewhat embraced, the pain becomes your baseline. And then it's almost now it's a withdrawal of those chemicals that come with the pain. And so then you are you're not as much focused on the man. I can't wait to exercise just because I want to feel that good. It's that when I'm not exercising, I don't feel good.
[00:17:56] Right. And I think that that's part of why for me, like, I don't feel like I'll ever be cured of depression. I think most researchers and mental health professionals will tell another person while it's not something you can learn from, but that's why I like to use the term.
[00:18:11] Manage. Yeah, I like that, too. And we'll get to a little bit when I want to go through. And you put together what you call your Ten Commandments for managing depression. Yes. And then I went to one of the things I want to talk about a little bit later is the concept of Acceptance and Commitment Therapy ACT, which I love doing, talking about with regard to depression, because you're right, you basically have to make room for depression. Guess which? And yeah, because then that helps recognize that even when it's there, it's what are we going to do with it. Not the oh my gosh, it's here. I'm such a horrible person because I have it. I'll never get over this. Those aren't those aren't workable thoughts. I guess I want to really quickly go through so we give a little bit of stats. I think we've covered that lots of ways to find help. There's a depression hotline. I'll put that in the notes as well. And a lot of people attend 12 step meetings for depression. You can meet with a mental health professional there to give the disclaimer no. OK, you and I are not providing therapy through the podcast today. And we just want to provide some information and things that we feel helped us either as as individuals or for me in my practice. But depression is a significant, debilitating mental health condition. With that said, we highly encourage you to seek treatment from a mental health professional. The really quick to I thought this would be interesting. Then I want to get into your I want to hear your Ten Commandments. I have not I do not know them. So I'm excited. But so I think it's important to note that most people do experience periods of sadness in their life, especially after major events, job loss, divorce, death of a loved one. So clinical depression is different than that. And according to the DSM five, which you're beginning to love, is now in grad school.
[00:19:44] I know it, all of it.
[00:19:45] And this is why it is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. It's the thing that we use as clinicians to diagnose. And so depression is diagnosed or clinical depression, which is different than regular sadness, is diagnosed when you have five or more of the following symptoms in a two week period. The depressed mood most of the day. And so you can even see how these are a bit subjective.
[00:20:05] They're very subjective, which is why I say I don't love it and it's not. It's hugely important to our field, obviously, but it changes a lot.
[00:20:13] Yeah, it does, and it helps.
[00:20:15] That's not bad because we're learning new things all the time. So it has to change. But I think you can get sometimes too wrapped up in the minutia of something. And it's like, oh, well, you only have four of these, so.
[00:20:27] Right. So you must not be depressed. Right. OK, that's funny. I remember in grad school, apparently, I didn't take the DSM seriously enough, so then there would be some discussions where people were doing that and it was about. So this when you're depressed, mood most of the day. What constitutes most of the day? Is it over the 12 hour mark you? Is it is it less than? According to the DSM five five or more of the following depressed mood most of the day, loss of interest in almost all activities, significant weight loss or decrease in appetite, insomnia or hypersomnia, feelings of restlessness, fatigue or loss of energy, feeling worthless or guilty sometimes for no reason, thinking or trouble thinking or concentrating, and then recurrent thoughts of death or committing suicide. And then, you know, in here without a specific plan, if there is a specific plan and that, can we take that a little bit more seriously. So and then it can be so there OK, there's a DSM criteria. And again, if you now realize, oh, my gosh, I've got a bunch of these and maybe my depression is something I need to deal with, please go see a mental health professional. Yes, absolutely. And if you only checked off three and a half or four of these things, I'm good. You know, still go see a mental health professional. Sure. OK. All right. What brought you to the Ten Commandments of managing depression?
[00:21:38] So as you mentioned, the first time we met, I'm a student, I'm a graduate student working on a graduate degree in counseling. I'd like to be a mental health counselor at… So I'm currently working on a degree through Northwestern University. And it's very challenging. It's very difficult. I went to kind of a regional college here for my undergrad and it wasn't as demanding. And I just kind of had some family things all of a sudden hit me. I got super stressed out, OK? And to the point where my anxiety was so high that I was starting to have physical symptoms and it became paralyzing. And I ended up in a major depressive state.
[00:22:23] Here you were pursuing something that you were excited about, passionate about. This is what you want to do. So what was that like? Was this sweetmeat what's happening here?
[00:22:32] Well, I knew exactly what was happening because it's happened before, but I was surprised I couldn't shake myself out of it because in the past I've had issues like this. You know, it's been a long time since I couldn't get out of bed. That was a weird feeling. I was like I thought I was past this. Yeah. And I think that's maybe part of the management is understanding that you're never really totally past it.
[00:22:52] I really appreciate your vulnerability because that is here you're you're pursuing a career now in something you love. And so that had to have just felt just so it was a surprise.
[00:23:05] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was. I mean,
[00:23:09] Surprise are pretty lame word right there. I'm trying to well I mean, I don't put words in your mouth.
[00:23:14] No, but I think it's fair because I didn't I didn't expect that I was going to be back at this place. That was years and years ago, like a decade ago or more. So it really it was really eye opening. And I think it's a good thing and I'm glad it happened at this point. And not later on, you know, when I'm practicing and, you know, that would be that would be horrible, especially for my poor clients. Oh, I'm sorry. I can't get out of bed right now. Right now, though, it does.
[00:23:42] It gives you a tremendous amount of empathy, I can imagine.
[00:23:45] Well, yeah. Yeah. Certainly people that are going through depressed, you know, and sometimes it's hard to empathize with someone that is unwilling to get out of bed in the morning, something that simple, but you haven't been through it. Yeah. If you've never been through that and you know, somebody just sitting there like you just got to get up. Yeah, yeah. The person there, like a puddle of mess.
[00:24:12] Why would in one more episode of whatever, I mean I don't know, would you have though or were there days where you just felt like it's just not happening today period. Or was it a noon. I'll do it at noon. The noon rolls around and
[00:24:24] Some days that's what it was like. OK, I just would get up when I can. There was a lot of days I couldn't get up at all. So my my parents are currently gone as missionaries there in Florida and they literally had to take a plane home. I'm single, so I don't have someone there to, like, cheerlead me out of bed. Yeah. So they had to come back. I'm forty years old. My parents had to come back and get me out of bed can and you know that's those are kind of on my, my commandments. So maybe I'll share a little bit more about them. Yeah.
[00:24:59] Yeah. All right. Yeah. Let's get into those. Yeah. We can talk for days.
[00:25:03] Ok, all right. So kind of based on what we just talked about. My first commandment is, get up,
[00:25:12] Depression is not going to get better if you're laying in bed. Now, that being said, if you're if you're dealing with someone that is struggling with depression, standing there and like, get up, get up is probably not going to be helpful. But, you know, there's tactful ways that you can be encouraging and things like that. I remember the
[00:25:30] Podcast I did with Shelly Auldridge about anxiety. It was I mean, I love what she said about, you know, at that point, I don't know if it's maybe it's maybe the fight or flight response for the freeze response or so your brain's not thinking. Yes, your brain is not thinking rationally. So when you're trying to lay out all these reasons, when the person is standing above them saying, here's eight reasons why you need to get out of bed,
[00:25:48] That's not registering. No, it's not. Because, I mean, the way that I like to explain it is, is at that point, the emotions are overriding logic to the point. I mean, your emotions are huge and logic is just I mean, it's there somewhere, but it's not going to override this huge cloud.
[00:26:09] Ok, so the managing depression is get up. You kind of have some tips thing.
[00:26:13] Well, I don't necessarily have tips, but I did want to. So, I mean, for me, it was setting an alarm. OK, what I found happening is, is I would be up super late. I'd just be laying there because I didn't get up until noon. Get up. I get up. I mean, wake up. I didn't wake up till noon, one or two, and then I'll go back to bed until four a.m. I just lay there from two until four a.m.. So the reason I'm I'm saying just get up is because if you're in the bed, you're not going to be able to do any of these other things. So, OK, I got to get out in order to do anything else. Good point. And I looked at kind of some interesting things. So there was a study that that was done by the University of Colorado, MIT, Harvard and the University of Vienna. Now, they specifically looked at that female nurses. So if you're a female nurse, this specifically applies to you. I think it applies to a lot of people, yeah. You know, that's just what they were looking at. They found that that if you got up in the morning based on on all of these nurses, they surveyed several thousand of them. Those that got up early and early could be different for different for for me, 7 a.m. I'm fine with that being early, but, you know, everybody's different.
[00:27:27] So that's halfway through my day.
[00:27:29] And I was totally kidding you. We've already run through three states,
[00:27:33] So getting off early
[00:27:35] Anyway, so. Twenty seven percent decrease in depressive symptoms and people that get up early.
[00:27:43] I like this. I have to tell you, I listen to a podcast long ago. I think it was one of Freakonomics Radio or something. I've been meaning to get back to it where they were talking about can you be if you're an early morning person or a night owl and can you change? The answer is yes. But they had some data to back up. The early risers were more productive. They were happier. They were all the same. So sorry. Sleep in people, but took it up. Right. Is he going well? I mean,
[00:28:06] We have to adjust to for people that have you know, they're working third shift and stuff like that, don't go to bed at 6 a.m. and get up at 7 because we told you that because
[00:28:14] It's going to be more
[00:28:15] Productive, you're not going to be less depressed because you're going to have an hour
[00:28:18] Sleep. Sleep is still important. It's hugely important.
[00:28:21] And so the next one is actually something you just said, be productive. Yeah. And and and in that what I mean is, is getting up and watching TV all day is probably not going to get you out of feeling depressed, you know, and I'm not saying, you know, go clean your whole house, but just do what you can when you can. I mean, get up and do something, make breakfast, maybe do the dishes if you like to get outside. Have you heard there's
[00:28:48] A viral video speech of I think it's someone, a Navy commander or something talks about making your bed in the morning.
[00:28:56] So so there's a there's a Canadian psychologist, comedian psychology.
[00:29:01] Oh, yeah.
[00:29:02] Kind of book. Yeah, I think it's twelve. Well, yeah, I think rules for life. Something like that. Yeah. Yeah. And I think the first rule was, was make your bed.
[00:29:11] And that's what this one's gone around for a while and where. And I think that's that point. You get up and you accomplish something.
[00:29:17] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's along those lines. So the next one is, is get active. And for me this one was huge and I'm including like this is exercise is really what I'm looking at, but exercise is different for different people. So right now I'm spending about two hours a day, six days a week in the gym. But I didn't start that way. Yeah, this was months ago. I there were there were times I was at the gym once or twice during the week for an hour. So you got to understand where you're at and just just get there.
[00:29:52] And I appreciate that, too. I feel like when even I'm suggesting that I'm speaking somewhere to a client and they assume I'm saying, hey, can you hurry up and get to the one hundred mile running, right? No, just walk. Yes. And I remember hearing, boy now a million trains are coming at once, but there's. In other words, just talked about there was a guy talking about how he got into the just even getting up and just stretching movement and the way it kind of stretches the muscle fibers and the and it just helps you from not just feeling stagnant and then from stretching to walking to just move.
[00:30:25] Yes. Yes. And that's really what I'm talking about. If you have a gym membership and you get to the gym, great. If you don't and all you can do is just walk around your yard at first and that's all you can do it first. Just do that. And I think it's important to to point out there's been several studies. I think the most recent I saw was through the University of Texas south eastern. I think was was the school. Eighteen thousand participants. And they found that when they were pulling these people, exercise was equally as effective as antidepressants. I did hear that. That could
[00:30:58] Be. Yeah. By the way, it's why I didn't needs pulling things out from Texas Eastern, you know, where you have that stuff, right?
[00:31:04] The I the data. That's why I like doing what's so great. OK, all right. So the next one or in three, this is four four four. Improve your diet and this could be a couple different things. So you did mention their, you know, weight, significant weight loss. Some people with significant weight gain weight.
[00:31:23] Even as I was reading that from the DSM, that's what I was thinking. I get people that, you know, therapeutically eat and put on a fair amount of weight and then they beat themselves up about that.
[00:31:32] Yeah, well, and I mentioned before kind of the physiology of it with glycogen, which
[00:31:38] Is what you and I talked about that. Yeah. Yeah, about that. I have that on your Nate quote. When we were putting some notes together, I feel like I'm more attracted to things. I'm depressed, like video games, carbs. And then we were talking about wondering if people who have depression have a propensity to overeat, sugar, carbs. And then I said in my notes, I said, Nate do your liver glycogen. OK, so here we go. Do that. Liver glycogen.
[00:31:59] All right. So so glycogen is kind of the fuel of the body. And so when we eat, especially carbs, our liver will fill filled with glycogen. And and when it's full of glycogen, you can't take anymore than it releases Tryptophan and tryptophan. Is that chemical in Turkey.
[00:32:17] That's why I hired you. That caused us to fall asleep watching the Cowboys and the Lions. Right.
[00:32:22] Right. So what then ends up happening Is the body a tryptophan? Now, I'm I'm not a neurologist, so this is my understanding and thankfully is a very basic OK. Is the most basic level here. No juiciness. My understanding is tryptophan is a serotonin precursor. So the body will metabolize the tryptophan into serotonin or it will trigger the body to create serotonin. And serotonin is a feel good drug. So overeating makes us feel good emotionally and sleepy. Oh yeah. So you just want to sleep happy
[00:33:00] And sleep happy coma. And the way you got there was from tasty treats.
[00:33:04] Right. And in and rule one, you barely got out of bed, then you overeat and next thing you know you're back in bed sleeping in, you wake up, you're like, oh I got to do it all over. Right.
[00:33:13] Ok, so I like that. And again, Nate is not a doctor and that may have been a stick figure drawing of something, for example. Like I you know, I think that's a workable thought, as they say, in acceptance of commitment therapy.
[00:33:26] Ok, yeah. So improve your diet. Could be eat more. Could be less. And certainly we're looking at, you know, if you can any way you can incorporate fresh fruits, vegetables, like I mean, I love donuts, but they're awesome. It's going to make you sick and you're going to feel rotten. Yeah, you really are.
[00:33:45] You know, gosh, I remember for a while I was on this kick of oh, I think after the one of the podcast had the woman half size me, the podcast and the website lost literally half a hundred and fifty pounds. And she even just talked about we have that concept of where, you know, sometimes I think, OK, I didn't eat the salad. And so really, does it matter to eat the banana? It's like, absolutely, yes. Have a banana. One is great an apple is great. And she even talked about, you know, don't feel right now like, oh, gosh, I got to go. I got to start some crazy diet or whatever. Just make a little bit of progress, right. Yeah. Right.
[00:34:18] Yeah. And that's huge. So let's go to number 5 here, see a therapist.
[00:34:23] Ok, hey, before you get to hear why Nate says that, going to see a therapist is one of his Ten Commandments when dealing with depression. It's kind of perfect timing, right, for me to jump in and say if you if you aren't in the area here, if you aren't planning on reaching out to see if you can visit with Nadaf, trying to get on my schedule, then this this episode is brought to you by the fine folks at Betterhelp.com. So if you've been on the fence about seeking professional help, look no further than your computer or your phone and go to Betterhelp.com virtual couch and get ten percent off your first months of services, Betterhelp.com can put you in touch with a licensed therapist or a licensed professional clinical counselor in as little as forty eight hours. And it's affordable, it's flexible. And the therapists have a variety of specialties, including anxiety, depression. We're talking about today, OCD, grief, loss and the intake process is. Streamlined, it will get you to the therapist who will know how to help you and and breaking up, it can be hard to do. But if you don't like the fit of your therapist, Betterhelp.com makes it incredibly easy to find a new therapist without any uncomfortable break ups. So go to Betterhelp.com, slash virtual couch, get 10 percent off your first month services, which now well over a million people have done. So let's get back to the interview with Nate Christianson.
[00:35:31] So therapy is interesting and I don't know if you've ever heard of Jonathan Shetler. So he's a psychologist in Colorado and he's huge into psychotherapy. And so he quoted a study that studied him in one of my classes, not him, particularly when we looked at something he wrote. Yeah. And and this piece that he wrote, he quoted a study that, according to the study, cognitive behavioral therapy was twice as effective for people as antidepressants, and psychotherapy was three times as effective for people with depression versus antidepressants. Interesting. Yeah. So there's there is value to seeing a therapist. Yeah, absolutely. Do it.
[00:36:15] As a therapist, I have to say, a lot of times people feel like, you know what what how is it going help? And there's the it's cliche, but it's true. Sometimes it does feel good to just kind of to be able to express things to somebody is not going to just tell you, knock it off. You shouldn't do that to realize what you're doing. You shouldn't know your way. So any of those kind of things. But I feel like also I can't tell you how often I hear people express things that they just assume they're the only person in the world that feels the way that they do. Right. And then when when you kind of don't is that therapist. And I go, I mean, thank you for telling me that. And they kind of look at it like maybe you're not freaking out right now. You're not ready to lock the door and call the right, you know, and then I feel like sometimes that just feels like there's give them a little bit of something. And I've got my episode right raising their emotional baseline. I think therapy is going to help raise your emotional baseline and every little bit eating right. The movement, everything you're talking about as it raises the baseline, you're going to view things a little bit different.
[00:37:05] Yes, OK, yes. OK, so the next one got to talk to a doctor. Now, this could be your personal family doctor or this could be a psychiatrist. So antidepressants works for roughly about half the people that take them. So for some people, they're not going to be helpful. But for some people, they're hugely helpful, you don't really know what that is, you know, until you try it. Yeah, I rule it out. Yeah. Yeah. I go to a psychiatrist myself. After what happened earlier this year, I was like, holy cow, I got to do something. This is bad. And so so I'm seeing a psychiatrist and it's you know, I haven't found the exact drug yet, but I, I did find some drugs that were really helpful when I was younger. OK, now we're kind of trying a new search and I'm
[00:37:50] Going a couple of thoughts there. You tell me if you if you disagree or if you agree, but you can go to your family doctor, you can go to your GP general physician, and they can prescribe an antidepressant. And I'm not saying anything negative about that. A psychiatrist, though, is one who is going to have probably a little bit more assessment tools that they do for a living. And so I find that some people go to their GP, they ask for an antidepressant, they prescribe something that that they feel has worked for most of the people they work with. Right. And so then if it doesn't work for the maybe the client I'm talking to, then they just say it doesn't work. And so, I mean, again, I love my GP. I do. He's a great guy. But the psychiatrist, I, I ideally you want to then report back to them. Here's how it's working. They can adjust dosages. Right. And if that's not working, they can say, OK, we can try this one. And and then you can really rule out whether or not there is a medication that works. It's not a I tried something for four weeks. I really didn't feel any different. And I've done.
[00:38:45] Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, I mean, what you're dealing with there is a specialist versus someone that has a broad base of knowledge over a lot of different things. So they're just not going to have the depth of knowledge when it comes to mental health. And that's not to say that. I mean, I, I actually in my religious congregation, there's a retired doctor and he's been very helpful for me because he but he's also looked at other things as well, like my dad. And he's giving me other suggestions that the psychiatrist who's very focused on pharmaceuticals, you know, maybe didn't focus on this much.
[00:39:21] So while you're there, when you mention diet again, I mean, I know there are people that are probably going to listen that have had their lives radically changed by a change in diet. And I don't want to sleep on that. I feel at my core that if I if I never turned back to another donut or candy bar or a bag of chips or that sort of thing, again, I would be I know that it would help. I really do. It's difficult. But I it I know there are people that I've had in my office that have said, look, once I you know, I once I basically cleaned up my diet and never looked back, then life looked completely different. So and I understand that. But then I don't want that shame or guilt feeling to come for people that say you have tried a can't, that sort of thing.
[00:40:01] Well, and I think that you're looking at potentially different people. So some people are I mean. That the diet is their cross to bear. And that is going to be the hardest thing for them their entire life and other people, it just doesn't. I have a close friend. I've always liked sugar. You know, maybe for that glycogen reason he didn't really care that much. Yeah, it doesn't really bother him. Like, he don't understand that. Like, he sees he sees a pile of candy and he eats one piece. Like, I'm like, how much of this pile can I get in my face.
[00:40:34] We talk about transference as a therapist. When I have the people I can I really care much about food. I find myself then man, I got to be very mindful and get back to focus with the client because I think. What is he talking about? What is that like? Is he just saying that or do you really can you sit there at Halloween and not want to raid his kids? Candy, what is that like. Yeah. Okay, yeah. All right. Well no we on
[00:40:53] Ok, so we are on one, two, three, four or five, six, seven. All right. Be social. OK, these are good. Yeah. Well these are all very basic and simple. So that's why I thought, you know, if you're especially in the throes of depression, hopefully these things, you know.
[00:41:11] Yeah. Are a depression as a as is something that causes one to isolate. Yes. OK, so that's where you're headed with that.
[00:41:18] Yeah. So I'm an introvert. I enjoy people, I like people, but I like environments that I have a little bit of kind of control, especially like so me walking around an amusement park kind of raises my anxiety, OK, a lot of people. So sometimes I have a tendency to not be social, but I'm realizing now, you know, holy cow, like being social with other people is is helping me. And there's and there's pieces of that that are interesting. So the doctor that I mentioned previously,
[00:41:48] Who, by the way, I want to get on the podcast. I want to shout his name out. Yeah. But I think he'd be great. Oh, he's
[00:41:52] Yeah. He's wonderful. So anyway, he he came by.
[00:41:57] Sorry, you said the psychiatrist. I want to get on the podcast. I don't know this doctor. Maybe he needs to come on the podcast as well
[00:42:01] Or he's retired. I mean, he's so he doesn't have much time. Got a ton of time now. I have to talk. Yeah. So anyway, so he he came by, my dad brought him by, you know, after he flew all the way back from Florida and brought him by because I couldn't get out of bed one day. And he's like he's like you've heard of smile therapy. And I was like, no, no, I don't have any idea what that is, he's like, I want you to just look in the mirror and smile yourself for five minutes. And I was like, Oh, that's absurd. So I didn't do it. Oh, like me, I'm stubborn. Yeah. So I didn't do it. But I noticed when I was interacting with other people, I couldn't help but smile on occasion. And I was like, you know, this is kind of what he was alluding to. I think, you know, when you have an interaction with people, preferably a good interaction, like if you just being angry with talking with people and maybe maybe we'll put the social piece right.
[00:42:51] You're going to say, well, what's the opposite political party I believe in? It's going to be yeah, OK,
[00:42:56] Let's discuss something that's going to make you really mad. Right. But, you know, for most people, you're having a just a random discussion and you just occasionally smile. And we are hardwired to be social even if we are introverted. And so on some level, we're you know, we are getting our brain is is is releasing neurotransmitters from interacting with people. Yeah. I mean, it's crazy, but that's just kind of I guess on some level it's a survival mechanism.
[00:43:24] I enjoy. I do I and I try to bring humor into therapy. I mean, I think that smiling is I mean, yeah, it does help. It helps a lot. I so, you know, my my train of thought about telling that story I was ready for. I wanted that doc, the retired doctor, so bad to say. Have you heard of tickle therapy and your dad just like mercilessly tickling you to get you out of bed.
[00:43:43] Oh, you wouldn't have ended. Well, I'm not sure I'm ticklish at all when I'm depressed.
[00:43:47] Ok, yeah, that's a fair point to say.
[00:43:49] You're in my space. You should we go now? We're OK.
[00:43:52] All right. So we're not advocating tickle therapy with smile and being social is a good thing.
[00:43:56] Yeah, OK. So, I mean, there's a lot of different things just, you know, few ideas, you know, if you're religious or you, you know. Yeah. Go ahead. Go go do your church activities even if you can't get in the middle of it. And and I understand you don't want to be there. That's the last thing in the world you want to do. But just just be in the presence of people can sometimes, you know, over time it'll warm you up, you know, see family, friends. I mean, there's you
[00:44:21] Know, I had somebody, oh, a long time ago to talk about. They would they liked in those moments to be able to just kind of get outside of their their their heads. They loved people watching. And I love that. I do, too. Yeah. And so they talked about they would literally just go to a mall and the food court and grab a drink and then just watch people and that just they found themselves. And I think it was kind of like a mindfulness exercise without them knowing. So they were noticing people noticing interactions with people. And and so they're out of their head. They're out and about. There's movement to kind of walk to the table. Yeah. So I like that. So there's a lot of different ways. But you're
[00:44:52] Social. Absolutely. Do you feel like the,
[00:44:55] I don't know, social media kind of things is a good thing or a bad thing at that point?
[00:44:59] Well, so I did I did put here, which I which I failed to I don't want to read this is if possible, do it daily and in person.
[00:45:08] I like the in person thing, yeah, part with the social media is when you're down and also you jump on there and you start seeing everybody in Cancun or, you know, whatever.
[00:45:16] Yeah. And that's and that's one of the interesting critiques of social media, which is it puts us, too, into other people's lives. And then there becomes a comparison problem. Yeah. It's like, wow, this person I went to high school with has a beautiful home, a beautiful family, and they're vacationing and they can't go. Yeah. And then for me, I'm single a graduate student. You know, that's what's wrong with me, right? Nothing more depressing.
[00:45:45] And they didn't post a picture of the guy losing his wallet. Somebody like rifling through their stuff, their flight delays and that sort of thing, which I mean, I'm making light of that. But I do feel like the the part where I know that everyone has their problem. Oh, yeah, they do. But it's hard to kind of acknowledge that.
[00:46:01] Yeah. Yeah, it is. OK, so eight serve. Now, this is obviously heavy in terms of religion. That's usually a big, big component. Yes. I found interesting quote, I don't know if you've heard of Karl Menninger. He was a psychiatrist. He died, I think, around 1990. He wrote several books and so was somewhat influential. And someone once asked him, what advice would you give to a person if that person felt a nervous breakdown coming on? And, you know, a psychiatrist, most people like to go see a psychiatrist and get some drugs. Yeah. And his response was, leave your house, find someone in need and do something to help that person.
[00:46:39] That's perfect.
[00:46:40] So, I mean, for I think for especially, again, for religious people, you know, I mean, you find a million different things and say the New Testament, you know, you you find your you lose yourself and you find yourself losing of yourself. Yeah.
[00:46:58] And I do feel so I've had a lot of a lot of religious congregations do have immediate opportunities to serve. You can reach out to somebody, a pastor, bishop, and they'll tell you. But I've had I've had some clients that don't necessarily have a religious community who and I know it can sound cliche, but the soup kitchen, if there are a lot of opportunities, I had one at one client go volunteer to cook one day a week at a it a small group home, and that led to other opportunities and other opportunities. And, you know, that was a great example of that, just kind of getting out and getting outside of yourself.
[00:47:29] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Number 9, avoid triggers and self medication. That was one of the first things you brought up. When we are feeling depressed, sometimes we have a tendency to to be attracted to things that are bad for us that help in the short term. But the long term effect is I mean, it's it's so much worse that I understand why you do it in the short term, because I have been guilty in the past of doing self-destructive things. Just get that relief because you're feeling so awful. You just want to feel a bit better.
[00:48:00] Yeah, but you're training your brain to when I feel this certain way now, I will turn to this addictive thing and that and that will it will release this chemical rush for the for the moment. And then quite frankly, I may feel worse after, but then which the ironic part is then when you feel bad, then your brain says, wait a minute. Yeah. Hey, remember, we got the rush here a minute ago, and so then you're just training the brain. And then we go back into that power of habit. Charles Duhigg book where the little walnut sized thing, the basal ganglia, the habit center, it's just waiting for you to throw it some things so that your brain can just say, I don't really have to think about this anymore. We just do this. Yeah. So your brain wants you to create those patterns as channels, those neural pathways so that it can just say, all right, you take care of that. I'm just going to kind of be here chilling because I want to live forever.
[00:48:47] You know, and it's interesting you mentioned that. So you or maybe I brought up Dr. Jordan Peterson because of you making your bed thing. So he he posted he's posted over the years. He's a professor at the University of Toronto. He's posted over the years some some of his lectures. And one of his lectures that I watched was on addiction. And he talked about how for for most people, the physical addiction is gone in a week or two. Yeah, it's the neural pathways that hang on for years and years. And so, you know, changing those neural pathways is the really difficult. Yeah.
[00:49:19] You know, and I'm going to go deep in a few in a month or two. I've got a series I want to do on ADD because I'm very open about that. I struggle with an attention deficit disorder. And and even when one gets medicated and the you know, and they feel like now they can focus their years, decades of patterns of just, you know, if I'm on the Internet, it's check this, this and this. If I'm coming into my office, I can I can do these things. And and even though you are you feel hope, you feel different. You feel like I can't focus. It's it's amazing. Just the tug of just the behavioral things that have been kind of ingrained over the years.
[00:49:55] Absolutely. Power of association. I mean, is why quitting smoking can be so hard for people? It's a social thing. It's like every morning I have a cigaret, you know, I mean, there's just and so you stop smoking in the body all of a sudden. Doesn't want nicotine, but then you're seeing all of these association, there's a
[00:50:11] Great podcast called The Hidden Brain, and they talk about quitting smoking 72 hours after and what happens with the brain and the body. And it's kind of like that. There's a lot that happens there to kind of put someone in a position where they can succeed. But they talked about the social part and the part where, you know, you're going out together at work or I mean, it's just it is there's so many of this these neural pathways that are ingrained. So same thing with the things that we do to avoid kind of managing our depression.
[00:50:38] Yeah, yeah. And then the last one is don't try to be perfect, just try to improve. And and that for me is been kind of a, you know, a constant in my life as I've sometimes set the bar too high. Yeah. And when you're feeling really depressed, you just got to set it low and, you know, shoot if you can't get out of bed for three days, but you get out of bed one day even if you do nothing else, the fact you got out of bed is an improvement. So tomorrow, try to do a little bit more. And guess what? There's going to be some days where you're going to do you know? Well, you'll you'll do great in the next day. You'll do bad. And then you want to feel depressed again. Right. I mean, you're going to backslide. Yes. Just be aware of it. It's OK. You know, the next day you can have an opportunity to do a little bit better. So just to reiterate, get up, be productive, get active, improve your diet, see a therapist, talk to a doctor, be social, serve, avoid triggers and self medication. Don't try to be perfect. Just try to improve. And there's other things that can certainly be helpful for religious people. Could be prayer or, you know, reading the religious texts.
[00:51:49] Have you have you been a fan of mindfulness at all? Has that been a part of any of
[00:51:53] What you have done? Absolutely. So for me, mindfulness can help in many different circumstances. I find it particularly helpful when I'm feeling very anxious, so I don't necessarily quite incorporate as much when I'm yeah, when I'm going through a depressed state. But but I also, when I'm really depressed, have focused problems. OK, so mindfulness would be especially helpful, but I can't focus sometimes so I don't even like go there.
[00:52:20] Now that makes sense. That does. I'm a huge I'm done a lot of podcasts I think recently on acceptance and commitment therapy and that there's a mindfulness component there. And I had pulled up a study not too long ago that acceptance and commitment therapy, also known as ACT is a the this is titled ACT as a little known fast treatment for depression, as some psychologists believe that accepting your negative thoughts can help them pass faster. And I know it's much more complicated than that, but with accept that with act. The act was developed in the nineteen eighties, but now there's finally enough. It's really there's enough evidence now that we can kind of accept it as a it's a it's an evidence based model that shows act of being effective in treating anxiety and depression and chronic pain and addiction and those sorts of things. But so instead of like classic CBT cognitive behavioral therapy and CBT therapist encourages you to try and challenge your negative or irrational thoughts. Act kind of want you to be more mindful and accepting of them, make more room for them, which I know kind of sound a bit squishy if you haven't really tried to do it right. But I think that it goes against that I'm broken or and it's more of just these are just some feelings or thoughts. And I have plenty of these. And they're going to come and they're going to go and and then what do I do with them? And how do I learn how to kind of make a room for them? You know,
[00:53:33] And that's an interesting thing when you talk about about our emotions and kind of how we feel broken, because, you know, when you talk about feeling broken, when you're in a major depressive state, that is like the ultimate feeling of broken from what I've experienced. Yeah. And we have a tendency to want to figure out what is wrong with us. Yeah. Like, I feel bad, therefore I am. Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes you have to to accept the fact, OK, well I'm not necessarily good or bad, at least this is my perspective. And what I found is just accepting. OK, I'm Nate, I'm not necessarily I'm not all good, I'm not all bad. And the brain wants to classify things and we can get ourselves into trouble. Yeah, well, you know, if we feel bad inside, then our brain might just tell ourselves, OK, well, if I feel bad I am bad.
[00:54:19] Yeah. So I mean, you know, go. So that's an acceptance. I'm just an act. One of the coolest things is you start to say if you start to say, OK, I can get over this or I'm not bad. They call it reason giving and you kind of sit back and say right now, just kind of pay attention to what stories your brain tells you in the next few seconds. And it's going to say, you know, you are bad or well, you haven't gotten over this yet or I can't believe you're back in the state. Or and when you really dig deep on ACT, you start to then label those you recognize those the stories that your brain is trying to hook you and you will say, oh, there's the I can't do it story or I recognize that one. The old you know, you'll never get over this story. They're just stories of brains telling us and they tell us that. And then we become an ACT They call it Fuster. So then you get into the you become. Used with that belief in that belief or thought is it is fact, but so, in fact, you really working on diffusing the guy who found it at this guy named Steven Hayes talking about the mindfulness or meditation? He says when you meditate, you let your thoughts pass by like a cloud in the sky. You're noticing them rather than pushing them away. And ACT is based on that idea. So the key said isn't isn't cleaning up your thoughts. It's changing the relationship to the world within yourself. Kind of like what you're saying, right? So he says and what I love about it is based on values, too. So it is this what's your idea of success? You don't have to come out of this and then and write the novel or go get your PhD or whatever, because that's going to if that's not your core value, then you're just kind of setting yourself up to feel worse about.
[00:55:51] Yeah. And you see that when we talk about morality, two different people, same event. One person is you know, it's crushed them because in their own mind, you know, it's a horrible thing. Another person maybe was raised in, say, a sex positive household and they have the same type of event happen in their house and, you know, within their own life and it doesn't bother them. So, you know, on some level, you know, our our our brain is is is in charge even when your life feels totally out of control.
[00:56:21] Yeah, exactly right. Because it might even be kind of keeping you there. That's when, in ACT, they call it that's when you are you're fuzing. I almost want to kind of go so close to going off on a tangent, but I like what you just said there. Let me see if there was any other stuff that I am going to go off on a quick tangent. I mean, so there was a kind of a pull a little note, because this one referenced to my old alma mater, University of Utah, a clinical psychologist there, Megan Call, who uses act with clients, said in the lead runner might experience the same pain after a long run is someone with a physical disability, she observed. But the runner doesn't believe the pain will limit him. And the person with a disability doesn't have to either. Now, that can sound like, OK, this clinical psychologist doesn't understand, but she just said there's a difference between thinking I can't handle the situation and I'm having the thought that I can't handle this call observes. The latter might lead you to realize that indeed you can. So the kind of the the concept there is you do you are the way you diffuse from your I'm broken is I notice I am feeling broken when or if you're sad. It's I notice I'm feeling sad when I am, you know. So it's not that I'm like you said, I'm not I'm not used to sadness, I'm not fused to anger.
[00:57:29] And i'm not fused a failure. I notice I'm feeling this. Yeah. And so the one more quick thing and I want to do my tangent there, too, in 2014, there was a TED talk by an addiction and cancer researcher, Jonathan Bricker, and he described how some see act more effective at controlling cravings to like junk food, cigarets. And the typical approach and I like what he said here, he said you can't win a tug of war with the craving monster, he says in the talk, because eventually the monster will win and you will give in act acceptance and commitment therapy encourages you just to simply drop the rope. If you allow the monster to occupy the same space in your body, you'll discover that he's not as threatening as he appears and sometimes he'll even go away. And I kind of thought that was interesting. Yeah. So drop the rope. Right. The thing that the tangent that I'm dying to go on is in in acceptance and commitment therapy, you can have a goal. And in this one, I've actually used this so many times this week in a session because somebody brought it up. But if your goal is to make money and you don't look at your value, that we need to lead with our values to get to our goal, someone will tell me that they had worked in this basically a call center where they were felt like they were basically doing they were fraud.
[00:58:36] You know, they were trying to cover it up. The people up top were it's not really fraud. You just just read this script, you know, and that sort of thing. And so the money was there. Person was making money, but they felt just horrible about it because they're like, my goal is I want to be honest. I want to do this with integrity. Right. So then the in ACT I remember reading in a book at one point where you can have two people that want to climb a mountain. So the goal is to get to the mountain. But if one person's values are to be very present, then enjoy and then they're going to every bit of it. They're going to enjoy the camping on the way up. They're going to enjoy the rocks and the trail, the trees. So then the other person is just I have to I have to get to the top to get there as soon as I can. So then if a horrific storm occurs and now we have to scrap the mission, you know, these two climbers that had the same goal, the one who is just his values are around just enjoying the the being very present is going to say that was a success. And then the one who didn't to you know, his only goal was to get at the top now feels like a horrible failure. Right. That that was kind of deep.
[00:59:37] That's really deep. I mean, I think that that shows the value. I mean, it's it's just a story, but it just shows the value of changing our name, the way we think about certain events and certain things in our lives and and depression probably. I mean, you can see the application for depression.
[00:59:59] Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So if you're looking at it as more of, hey, I'm on a journey and if my you know, I guess if my goal is you, I would love to alleviate symptom. Of depression and in function better, whatever that looks like, but my but my values around that or, you know, I'm not going to beat myself up about it, I'm going to say I love your Ten Commandments, that I'm just going to I'm going to kind of take this slow and make small steps, you know, then it's going to look a lot different along the way than it's I didn't I didn't get my dream job or my dream career or whatever because depression got in the way. Yeah. Yeah. All right Nate, we could've kept going, huh? That's good.
[01:00:34] Well, and this is just one small part of direction. Like we didn't even talk about, like, child, you know, and their adolescence and the polar and all the difference. Yeah. Your depression. This is like just basic stuff.
[01:00:48] I smell a part two coming down the road, but
[01:00:50] You could probably do a whole series, 10 part. All right.
[01:00:54] Thanks for coming back on the virtual couch. This is amazing. Now, you know, you're going have to write the Ten Commandments of managing depression. I mean, after that, I needed to have that somewhere. I can point people to write. Yes. Blog on the TonyOverbay.com website.
[01:01:08] Well, just just remember, I'm not trying to be perfect. I'm just trying to improve. So I write a paragraph a day. So it could be a few weeks.
[01:01:15] That is fair. I will acknowledge that. I noticed that I was feeling pushy and I will back off of that. Alright Nate, thanks so much for coming on. And so we'll see you again on the virtual couch.
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