The Super Power of Struggle! Modeling a Growth vs. Fixed Mindset Sets Your Kids Up for Greater Success

Posted by tonyoverbay

Want to help your kids succeed? Let them see you struggle, let them see you fail, let them know you are human! Tony talks about a fascinating study out of MIT that shows how modeling the reality of not immediately succeeding at something can have a positive impact on kids as young as 15 months old. The article Tony references "Want to raise successful kids, MIT scientists say let them watch you do this..." by Bill Murphy Jr. ( also breaks down the challenges of kids growing up with a "fixed" mindset vs a "growth" mindset.

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Tony Overbay, is the co-author of "He's a Porn Addict...Now What? An Expert and a Former Addict Answer Your Questions" now available on Amazon The book debuted in the number 1 spot in the Sexual Health Recovery category and remains there as the time of this record. The book has received numerous positive reviews from professionals in the mental health and recovery fields.

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[00:00:00] I completed my first marathon, it was the California International Marathon in 1996, and my goal at that time was to finish under four hours and I made it barely finishing in three hours and 57 minutes. And it was amazing. And I have fond memories of that race. I passed a very sad juggling clown and around the 20 mile mark and realizing that it took me 20 miles to catch a juggling clown who was running the event. And I remember finishing and having a difficult time literally walking up onto the curb shortly after the race. And I felt the most incredible, just amazing soreness and pain over the next few days. And I celebrated that pain and that soreness and that led to about, I don't know, maybe 40, 50 more marathons, including the famed Boston Marathon in 2006. And from there, I did a few dozen, 50 KS 32 miles and then some 50 miles and then 100 case of 62 miles and then 100 mile races with the few 24 hour runs mixed in there as well. Where I also realized that marathon pain was cute in hindsight, 100 mile pain, that was amazing. A walk down the stairs had to be done backwards for a few days because you you couldn't engage your quads at all as well as to just try to get in the vicinity of the toilet, maybe a little bit too much information and then just fall down backwards onto it.

[00:01:14] Hope you stick the landing. But I digress. In those 24 hour runs, I covered anywhere from 111 to 125 miles. But the point being that I really don't talk about my first marathon entry. That was back in 1995. And so let me start with the excuse machine. We're talking about pre Internet or at least pretty easily searchable Internet. And I had no real training plan. I think I purchased a very large book that I never read. So I was thinking the training and better yet, absolutely winging the nutritional side of things, because about three days before the big event, this first marathon in 1995, I decided that I wanted to feel lean, I wanted to feel light, I wanted to feel ready. So I stopped eating. I decided not to consume a whole lot of calories so I would be ready for race day. So I feel light on my feet. And then the night before, we checked into a hotel that was near the start and I didn't sleep well and the run itself was absolutely brutal. We had no kids, but we had a golden retriever. His name was Dexter and my wife was set to meet me along the race course with Dexter. I'm sure you had the the bandana tied around his neck is all golden retrievers did, especially back in the late 90s.

[00:02:19] And I think I saw my wife Wendy at maybe the final five mile mark when I was still feeling OK and then maybe at the ten mile mark and then at 13, that was supposed to be the halfway mark. And I'd done several half marathons at that point. So I'm sure as I crested some hill that Wendy saw me, Dexter starts wagging his tail. But I was done. My legs had absolutely seized. I think about the The Wizard of Oz and the Tin Man. And there she was with Dexter and she started to say, hey, I'll see you a bit later. And I said, I'm done. I'm literally finished. And I don't remember much more. But the truth was I was absolutely starving and my legs were now locked at the kneecaps. So I did a Tin Man waddle over to a Taco Bell. I remember that was at that particular point in the race course. And I got in line and I stood there with my race bib on and I ordered a breakfast burrito and I remember inhaling it. And then I immediately walked outside and threw it back up. So there there was my first glorious marathon experience so I could have easily buried that one because I learned a lot from that experience. And but I didn't have to necessarily tell anybody that. And I'm I'm telling you now, and by nineteen ninety six then I had stuck to a training plan because of what had happened in 1995.

[00:03:35] I well I carb loaded the night before I slept better, I had trained more and I had an amazing experience, complete with the aforementioned passing of the juggling clown and finishing under four hours. But what I have so thoroughly enjoyed is I've been able to speak to countless numbers of people about a variety of topics, is being able to talk about failures or setbacks because we absolutely all have them. But why are we so fearful about talking about them, especially when it comes to people in our family, especially our kids? Are we worried that they might secretly find out that we're human or they find out that because I didn't complete this marathon in 1995, that they don't have to believe anything that I say. So today we're going to explore what a recent MIT study concluded, that if we want to raise successful kids, we need to let them see us do something. And something tells me, you know, where I'm heading with this. We will talk about what kids need to see from us to set them up for the greatest chance for success, as well as why it can be so difficult to show this side of us. So we're going to cover this and so much more coming up on today's episode of The Virtual Couch.

[00:04:55] Come on in, take a seat.

[00:05:02] Hey, everybody, welcome to Episode 273, The Virtual Couch. I am your host, Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, certified my barbacoa, try to speak Gruzman father for four, ultramarathon runner and creator of the Path Back, which is a pornography recovery program that is changing lives. Go to and download a short ebook that talks about mistakes that people make or myths that they fall prey to when trying to put pornography in the rearview mirror. When turning to that as a coping mechanism and weekly group calls, those have been amazing. These zom calls were forming this community of people that are there to be supportive. It's a shame free zone like nobody's business. Anyway, go to And I also realized my voice is a little bit rocky. We just got back from a vacation, which I'm going to talk about in a future episode of the virtual couch. In essence, things I learned from Disneyland. And it's not going to be just some sort of click bait or cliched thing because, boy, I had my therapy brain in full motion and it was just a blast. I jotted down a whole bunch of notes of things that I picked up there and but I screamed, oh, my goodness, I scream a lot when I am on a roller coaster. Any kind of ride, I am that guy. I am living my best life and I can't lie. I honestly thought of the Marianne Williamson poem are our deepest because there's some there's a line there and I'm not good at memorizing poems, that sort of thing.

[00:06:16] But it goes something about you're playing small does not serve the world that there's there's nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you. And I think toward the end of the poem, she's something that says something about is we let our own light shine. We unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. And that is we're liberated from our own fear that our presence automatically liberates others. I guess I'm giving a sneak preview of some of the things I'm going to talk about on a future episode about going to Disneyland and having the old therapy brain on high alert. But I really do find that when we went all in, when we had an amazing time on a ride, that the people around us did, too, whether it was there's a water ride in Disney's California adventure. And we immediately started chatting up the people that are in the ride with us. I think it holds eight people. There were a couple of teenage girls than a couple and maybe their 20s, and there were four of us. So when we started talking about how excited we are, how we don't want to get wet and we're asking them if they've been on the ride before. And boy, you could just see people open up to the point where then we had eight people in that thing screaming their heads off as we were getting drenched.

[00:07:16] And it was just it was a blast. What a shared experience. But so I really did think about that. But at the consequence of my voice, which is fine, that'll heal. It'll come back, but those memories will last forever. So I was reading about a particular article that someone had sent me a while ago, and I meant to cover this when I first saw it, but I think I just put it off for a later day. But this is a study from MIT and the study says, if you want to raise successful kids at MIT, scientists say to let them watch you do this one thing. But most parents are afraid to do it, the subheading says. Science says that children as young as 15 months old can learn to become more resilient, but only if you're willing to show them this. So drum roll. What is this? And this article is by Bill Murphy Jr. And what you need to show them is that you're human. You need to show them that you fail to show them that you have this tenacity or this grit, and you show them that you can continue and try again and learn from mistakes. And so in this article by Bill Murray, and it's a Bill Murphy, Bill Murray, the actor Bill Murphy, Bill Murphy says, imagine you're a parent and you want the best for your children.

[00:08:23] And you're convinced that based on science, that they need to learn this concept of grit and tenacity. So you work hard and you praise your kids the right way, always for their efforts, never for their innate characteristics and abilities, which I love that big part of the nurtured heart approach. You don't just say good job, champ. You're telling me and I really appreciate how hard you're working on that project that really shows me that you have this tenacity or I love the way that you are playing with your brother because that shows me that you are going to be such a good example to him. And so that if you we try to show them that the hard work will always pay off and maybe it makes yourself feel better in front of them, because we typically try to hide our struggles and we highlight our successes. And we we don't often show those low points that we have. We try to protect that side of ourselves from our kids, even from our spouse, from those around us. But researchers at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology say, hang on just a minute. It turns out there is a potentially big advantage in showing your kids just how hard you may have struggled to reach any goal. And according to this new research, children even as young as 15 months old may benefit from it, which is such a cool part of the study.

[00:09:28] So here's what that MIT study looked like and how this all fit into this larger body of research about teaching children to be resilient achievers. So the researchers at MIT, they had a series of experiments with very young children where they try to determine whether demonstrating this adult resilience would have an impact on how hard the children would work at an age appropriate task. So the experiment involved a couple of stages. Children averaging around fifteen months old would start by watching adults as the adults tried to solve simple tasks like opening a container or. Taking keys from a carabiners and so sometimes and what the researchers called the effort condition the adults would demonstrate, struggling to accomplish the task before ultimately prevailing somewhere around the 30 second marks, they were still keeping in mind a child's attention span, which along this episode. I want to just make some comments. Boy, that 30 second mark, we're talking about attention span. I still I don't think I can say this enough. If you have been talking with a teenager or younger even or man, sometimes just the adults around us. And you have been going on in lecture mode for over about 45 seconds. And you watch the person that you're lecturing, you watch their eyes glaze over. You watch them sit back and just settle in because they feel like this is going to be a long lecture.

[00:10:44] Then know that the brain starts to get a little bit into this fight or flight mode, that if somebody is being criticized that their heart rate will start to elevate and their cortisol, the stress hormone will start to elevate in their body, which will shut off the prefrontal cortex, which is the thinking logical part of the brain. And the fight flight or freeze response starts to kick in. We often forget about that freeze. We talk about fight or flight often. And so, so often when somebody is being lectured and they just sit there and tune out, they their brain is going into a protective state. They're in that freeze mode. And so it's not like they're taking in and absorbing all the information you're sharing with them. So I always think that's fascinating to try to make a point. If you feel like you have a point to make and do so in less than a minute is ideal. But back to the study. So the adults that were in this effort condition they would demonstrate struggling to accomplish a task before winning, solving the whatever the equation was at the 30 second mark. Then there were other times and what the researchers called the no effort condition where the adults demonstrated solving the task quickly. And there was also a baseline condition which skipped this first part of the experiment, whether there was the air condition or the no effort condition.

[00:11:53] So again, the effort condition showed the adult struggling for about 30 seconds, then ultimately prevailing. And then the no effort condition was where the adult just simply completed the task so they would open the container or they would take the keys off the carabiner immediately. So then the researchers gave the children a toy. They could play music if the children could find this hidden on off switch. And researchers studied how long the toddlers would look for the switch or else try to turn on this decoy button before either giving the toy to an adult for help or simply just throwing it on the floor. And I think you can probably see where we're going. Of the sixty children in the experiment, the ones who had watched an adult demonstrate resilience were consistently willing to try longer to get the toy to work. So that is fascinating, right, that the kids are watching us and we are modeling this behavior that if we want to show them today, I easily remove the kids from the carabiner, then are we wanting them to go, oh, my gosh, my dad is the world's greatest QI remover from carabiners in the world. I'll never be able to remove keys off of a carabiner like my dad or I mean, what do we win for that? We get a trophy.

[00:12:59] Do you a cookie? Do we get some praise or are we showing resilience and showing that, OK, the struggle is real and that but we keep at it and that our kids will then eventually learn that you need to keep something in order to accomplish the task. So they start talking about this power of mindset. So this is this is one study. And as Bill Murphy talks about, that's interesting, but it's involving toddlers and they're under some unusual circumstances. But it's all a piece of this large body of research read by led by Stanford researcher Carol Dweck. And I know I've talked about her in some previous episodes as well, because Dweck's research says that people can hold two types of beliefs about human achievement and development. Some hold on to what is known as a fixed mindset, would suggest that our skills or our aptitudes are almost entirely innate, that they are already there within us and others embrace this concept of a growth mindset where then, on the other hand, that our ability to achieve is more malleable and that you can continue to grow and change and adapt. And so in Dweck's research, in her research, the findings show that adopting this growth mindset ultimately leads to kids learning more or achieving more, being happier, being more successful than those who were taught to embrace the fixed mindset. And I'm going to go off here for a little bit on just some of my own ramblings.

[00:14:21] But I feel like there's so many things that I've learned over the years of counseling that, yes, I feel like the fixed mindset is something that most of us were taught. I'm 51 years old. I don't know where that cutoff hits, but it really was a you find your job, your lane. You do it for 30 years, 35 years. You retire, you get your pension, you work to live. So you do your job so that you can have free time at nights or the weekends or that sort of thing. And I was in that trap, so to speak, for ten years. I did computer software and I realized it was the old I didn't know what I didn't know, meaning that I was doing the same thing. I would look at the clock and when it hit five, I couldn't. Wait to go, and I tried my best to do as well as I could in my job, but it wasn't something that I was passionate about. And I feel like I really did have this fixed mindset that, OK, I have my degree, I have my job. Now, here's what I do. Instead of this growth mindset of trying to find what I truly love or I'm passionate about. And I think there's a lot of maybe pop psychology myths or cliches that have cropped up almost as a way for us to maybe make ourselves feel better at times if we're in this fix mindset or in a job or something that we just really don't like.

[00:15:35] Now, if you are absolutely stuck in a career, you've got the golden handcuffs or whatever that looks like a giant mortgage, those sort of things. I'm honestly I hear you and I work with people like that on a daily basis. So when I say, hey, I change careers at thirty two, I went back to school and got my master's degree at blah blah blah. I'm not saying that that's all you have to do because I know that everybody's situation or circumstance is different. But the the cliche or pop psychology thing that I often hear is that people say, well, I don't want to do what I love because then it will go from being something I love to a job. And there's a big and I've only been trying to put words to this than the last few months, but part of me feels like is that these story, our brain is fuzing two are telling us so that we stay in the path of least resistance or the comfort of the job or the life that we currently know because of that fear of the unknown and simply meaning that I'm working with clients for years and I'm embracing that same kind of fixed mindset of saying, no, I hear you.

[00:16:34] You're in that job. I mean, yeah, you don't want to you don't want to become an artist or you don't want to become a writer, because then all of a sudden then that would become your job. And I'm sitting here thinking maybe I'm living this thing. I love my job. And so I actually do enjoy working. And even though I get to I deal with a lot of really heavy things and topics and people's things that they bring into a session, I love my job. So, no, it isn't something that I've always fascinated by the way that people work, the way the brain works. I've been drawn to reading biographies even as a kid. And it was fascinating to me or always been to make people watch or always even when I go to these computer trade shows, I wanted to talk to people and find out why they got into the field that they did or what they like about it or that sort of thing. And that would have to remember, oh, my gosh, wait. I'm supposed to be negotiating a software deal in my bed. But so I feel like when you truly do find your passion, your love, that it does become something that you feel passionate about. And then you want to put in that additional effort or work and learning more about whatever it is that you are passionate about. So sometimes I feel like this fixed mindset that I know my generation was definitely handed because our parents I mean, that was what they had to do.

[00:17:42] They had to buckle down. They had to find the job. They worked. They got their pension. They worked until they could retire. And so I feel like the maybe there's so many opportunities now. We're inundated with so many choices. And I know that can be bad in some situations, but I feel like it's pretty good, too. And so I feel like often you combine this fixed mindset that somebody has of, OK, here's the thing you do, even if you don't really like it, this is what you do. So learn to like it or learn to just settle in for the rest of your life and you'll be happy after you retire. Man, that is some experiential avoidance that is just setting the stage for kicking the can down the road. If I really don't like what I do, then on a day to day basis, I'm probably finding a lot of other distractions and telling myself, well, I'll get to the things that I'm supposed to do this afternoon or tomorrow. But when you truly do have this growth mindset or looking for the things that truly drive you or I say this all the time, trying to find your values, things that matter to you, not things that you are supposed to think that you're supposed to like or that your spouse thinks that you're supposed to like or your family or your community or your church.

[00:18:43] But you find out what really matters to you, because those are unique things based on your experiences. But anyway, I digress. That's not the point of this podcast. But back to this research. This MIT experiment is about optimistic hope that could hopefully enable future generations to work from this growth mindset from a very young age. And Laura Schulz, who's a professor of cognitive science at MIT, said there's some pressure on parents to make everything look easy and not get frustrated in front of their children. So go back to what I just went on a tangent here about. If the parent doesn't even like the thing that they're trying to show their kid that you're not supposed to struggle doing, then we've got multiple layers of just this frustration of this set up for it's so funny. I can't even say failure. I wanted to say lack of success. So if I'm trying to make my kid think that I know exactly what I'm doing and it's something I don't even really care to do, then I'm probably going to struggle in doing it. I'm going to want to not take ownership of the fact that I've struggled because I worry that I'm teaching my kid that, oh, my gosh, they're going to think dad's a failure and they're going to lose all respect for dad and they'll never listen to him again, which is absolute nonsense.

[00:19:46] It's actually we're finding out that the data shows it's quite the opposite. So, again, it's pressure on parents to make everything look easy and not get frustrated in front of their children. But she said there's nothing you can learn from a laboratory study that directly applies to parenting. But this does at least suggest. It may not be a bad thing to show your children that you are working hard to achieve your goals, I think meaning the fact that it is OK to show your kids that you struggle or that you fail, or I think it's OK to show your kids that instead of thinking you are at point A in your life and you already have to know Z, that it is so powerful to say I'm A let's see where B takes me and from B, let's see where what C looks like. And I say this often. I'm so grateful for the way that things laid out. When I got out of the computer industry, it was steps I was honest in a software company that when the big .com boom crashed, then I didn't know what else to do. I started a computer hardware company with a friend of mine, mentor Tom Yoshida Yoshida son. And we created this company. We made Forensic Disk Duplicators, and I tried my best to really embrace and love forensic disc duplicators, but I did not enjoy them.

[00:20:54] I didn't love them. And so meanwhile, I'm finding myself even doubling down on, I don't know, for the time it was trying to find my values or turn into coping mechanisms of reading more biographies or really trying to learn more about people and learn more about you in the sales process of getting to understand people so that I could hopefully maybe find reasons why they would want to do this duplicator. But what I continually found was I was finding more reasons why that I felt like a fraud if I was trying to sell them a disc duplicator, because I don't even necessarily believe in the forensic disc duplicator to begin with. So I left that computer industry and I started talking with people. I almost became a financial planner. I almost became a construction consultant. Arbitration something. I almost became a pharmaceutical sales rep. I mean, it was all of these things that I just felt like I just have to start taking action to then see what comes next. And so all along that journey, I'm finding myself being drawn to wanting to study the mind and wanting to study behavior. So I go back and get my master's in counseling. But there was a moment and it's funny, I think I might've mentioned this a few weeks ago, and I'm looking at my desk here because I have the letter here somewhere I found at my garage, but I made it through two or three levels of interviews with Apple.

[00:22:01] And and I really thought I was going to get this job with this educational company that they had acquired. And it was in my area and I thought, OK, I might not even finished grad school in counseling because this is my path. But I'm so grateful that I stumbled upon this growth mindset that I got out of this fixed mindset, because that allowed me to explore, to fail. I remember sharing with my kids at the time as they were getting older, that I hadn't necessarily done as great in my undergraduate career in school. But in finding out more about what I really cared about, grad school was easy because I really loved the subject matter that I was dealing with. But anyway, so what have we learned today that this power of mindset is what she calls it in this article, is that when you have this fixed mindset that you have to find your lane and stick to it forever and ever. Amen that there. And sure, there are some people that have known from the time they were young that they wanted to be a doctor, for example. But there are also people that have thought, OK, well, I have to have this fixed mindset that I will be a doctor and then I will enjoy it.

[00:23:03] But and I've talked to a lot of doctors that they're pretty, pretty far into their career and they realize, hey, maybe this wasn't what I exactly I wanted to do, but I feel like I'm stuck. Or I think when I when I even find myself asking people, teenagers if I ever work with them, hey, so what you want to do when you grow up and oftentimes if they say company, I want to be an attorney or I want to own a small business, then I think, OK, this guy's got it together. But then if I hear somebody say, I don't know and I think back to that might be the right answer, because sometimes I feel like if it's this is what I want to be, are they moving forward with this fixed mindset? This is what I'm supposed to do. I'm supposed to know, when I'm in high school, what I want to do so I can take the AP classes so I can get through college early so I can start my career soon. And I really feel like maybe it's a little bit more about this journey or this growth mindset and it's more about that. I don't know. I mean, I changed majors three times in college. I start I went ten years in a career that then I ended up doing a complete 180. And and I feel like that was maybe now in hindsight, I feel grateful for having stumbled upon this growth mindset.

[00:24:05] And I was talking with a client just a few days ago, and they were there in college and they were saying, I need to figure things out now. And they were talking about how they have a lot of different interests and a lot of different passions. And they were framing it as this man. What's wrong with me? I should know by now. And I say, look, it says who again? Don't should on yourself. Nobody likes nobody likes to be shot on. Instead, we need to reframe that to, hey, check it out. There's a lot of things I like to do. And I shared with this person a bit of my story of where I feel like now that I can do therapy and write and podcast and speak and and all of those things that I feel like, OK, that I found my lane because there is a lot of growth opportunity in these various things that I do. But it took me a long time to not find myself wanting or thinking I'm supposed to go back to that fixed mindset of man. I just have to find the thing and buckle down and get to the end of the ride. So that then I can live, I would rather start living now and that's what I'm really finding and I have to tell you more.

[00:25:08] And now going on a little bit of a tangent here, a bit of a rant, but I feel like the I never I never thought of or had any intentions on being what would be deemed as a workaholic of sorts. But I found that the more passionate I get, the more that I enjoy working, the more I enjoy the study of psychology, the way that people interact and communicate, and the more I find myself in my even in my off time bringing this information into conversations, wanting to know more about people's experience, their relationships, their childhood. And I feel like I could see how this could start to creep into something that may look like someone is a workaholic. But I also feel like it raises my baseline up so much that I feel like I'm more present when I am with others so that it might be more of this, work hard, play hard, kind of a mentality where, you know, again, raising your emotional baseline, I feel like is that's something that I've talked about for so long. And I air quotes invented this emotional baseline theory over a decade ago. But I feel like emotional baseline. It's about self care. Self care is not selfish. We often feel like if we are putting our own needs or wants or desires first, that that is we are full of our own ego or that we again are being selfish.

[00:26:21] But I believe that when you have this growth mindset, you find the values and the things that matter to you. You turn toward those things that you will start to raise your emotional baseline. You'll start to be around people that are perhaps a little bit more like minded, people that share shared experiences, common interest, so that then you may feel a little bit more of a connection. And then as you do that, your baseline raises even more so that you are more present in the things that you do. Because I feel like when people truly are living the life that they would like to be living, that that is what leads to, again, if they're following these socially compliant goals, if they're doing things that they think they're supposed to, even the job that they think they're supposed to, because if not, they will let themselves down or let somebody else down, then those socially compliant goals, when that is what your life is full of, it leads to this concept of experiential avoidance that the more I feel like I'm not connected or care about the things I do, the more I maybe feel like I don't have a sense of purpose or a passion. Then the more that I am going to struggle with those day to day things of the things that I'm supposed to be doing. And then that's when it is so easy to find distraction.

[00:27:27] There are so many distractions, the Internet, our phones, communicating with someone at the cube next to you and to the point where then it's you don't necessarily get the things done that you feel like you need to or you're supposed to. And then you put that off to another day. And that can lead to feeling like what's wrong with me. And so story, I think, is that whether we learn today, about an hour ago. But so what do we learn today? I would love for you to take a look at or embrace this growth mindset. Are you currently do you have a fixed mindset? And more importantly, what this article is talking about today is that if that is what you are projecting to your kids, that you are telling them that they need to have this fixed mindset, they need to know what they are going to do right now, that maybe we can dial that back a little bit. And what the study showed, as well as literally in that example, it's OK to be human, it's OK to fail, it's OK to not know what you're doing. And it's especially OK to say I'm not sure what I'm doing because I feel like that, especially with kids or teenagers or even your spouse, that that is an opportunity for connection and that's an opportunity for growth. If you are that vulnerable and saying, I'm not really sure how to do this, but I would love to do this together, or why don't we jump on YouTube and find out a way to make this happen, that that is going to drive growth and connection, number one, that vulnerability.

[00:28:39] No to a shared experience. So instead of trying to show them, look at this, I did this thing really easily and you didn't even see that. I put a lot of effort into it behind the scenes so that you would think that I was a master at this, because what do you what do you get for that? You had a trophy again, cookie, a pat on the back, or does that person that's watching you do that feel like, oh, jeez, I got to just be good at things immediately or something's wrong with me? The struggle of vulnerability is the way to connection. And so I hope that you have taken something from this podcast today that you can take with with you throughout the day to show that vulnerability, to really take a look and see are you in a fixed mindset or a growth mindset? And then if so, maybe it's time to take a little bit of a step back and look at how you can at least find some things in your life that you can start to embrace more of a growth mindset on. So I could go another round of saying these things, but I will leave you here. We'll we'll go out with the wonderful the talented Aurora Florence with her song.

[00:29:35] It's wonderful to see you next time you have.

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